Masters Round4

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:12 am

Damnit. I said I wouldn't do this, but I have to reply to "Crutches anyone Sad" because of how ridiculous it is.

The normal character limits are 625 + 625. That's 1250
700 is a little more than half of that.

850 is still only 68% of the normal allowance.

Characters aren't "crutches," they're a part of the game, just as much as rank and file infantry.

Some players may like big boring blobs of "soldier Joe" but others prefer epic heroes with magic swords and devastating spells.

Aside from 700 (or even 850) points of characters immediately wrecking several armies (every Undead army immediately becomes totally unplayable even at the higher value), and aside from the chances that 90% of the players won't have 1800 (or 1650) points of painted non-character models, the comp rules described here are simply wrongheaded. They are wrongheaded because they improve Horde units.

Horde units are already powerful - indeed they are one of the easiest (and most boring) ways to win - all these comp rules do is make them more powerful. By restricting the amount of monsters, war machines and magic (indirectly by having a very low character cap), there are significantly less drawbacks to bringing a ton of huge horde units. Without at least the possibility of going up against a handful of mortars or stonethrowers or Hellpit Abominations or Dwellers Below, there is far more reason to just take a bunch of units of 70 models and play the Stubborn attrition game all tournament.

Now, the comp rules haven't eliminated those things, but they've been scaled back. That's unnecessary and irrational, since any reduction in the above units makes hordes more powerful. Since they're already the best units in the game, why should they get any sort of advantage? Restrictions on the number of selections is already built into the rules - no more than 2 of any Rare unit, and no more than 3 of any Special unit. Why should there be less than that?

Blood and Glory has already been included as one of the scenarios in the tournament. In my mind, there is no reason to have any sort of composition beyond that (except for banning the Power Scroll, which is really no fun). Blood and Glory forces players to bring Standards and find a way to protect them, and in my opinion, it's perfect.

Your statement that characters are a "crutch" in 8th edition is nothing more than an indication that you don't have a firm grasp on how the game of Warhammer is played in 8th edition. There is nothing wrong with players taking characters. Characters requiring extra limitation is a 7th, 6th or even 5th edition holdover. Equally, there's nothing wrong with players taking monsters or war machines. If anything, there should be a restriction against players taking units of 70+ infantry models, since that's the easiest way to "point and click" win in the current rules.

Characters aren't cheesy anymore. Monsters aren't cheesy anymore. War machines definitely aren't cheesy. A few spells are cheesy. Ranked infantry is incredibly powerful. Just because it looks good on the battlefield doesn't mean it's fun to play with or against. I think these composition rules, particularly the massive restriction on characters shows a mindset trapped in previous editions of the game. I think the rules in general, and the above "crutches" statement also shows a bias from playing Empire, who will specifically excel with the given restrictions.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  squalie on Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:23 pm

Leave up to nathanr, to make me want to hug everybody! Very Happy


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Re: Masters Round4

Post  JoeMisfeldt on Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:51 pm

Count me in. Either VC or Wood Elves.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  Kuyp on Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:14 pm

@GobbladasSquig wrote:

*For example, if I took O&G and wanted to play with a wyvern war boss (hardly a broken thing in 8th), it would be very hard for me to fit in both a BSB and a shaman with decent gear. Another example would be TK, which are already suffering and really need their characters to be able to compete.



I'm not sure why people think that armies like TK "NEED" their characters so bad, in 8th spamming characters for a TK (IMO) is not going to help (enough) to win the game, it may even hurt you more! the limit on characters if totally fine with me, 850 is still a good amount of points spent on characters. there is a flip side to the limit as well that may be over looked, for example without the restriction you could have all the tooled up vamps or tooled up slann, but that also means that as an empire player i can take my "tooled up" LV 4 with a full company of priests that say you will never get a spell off with out IF and still have my horde's of infantry roaming about.

Also keep in mind that it is a tournament, personally i would prefer it if there were more rules of engagement added in to take a player out of there element and challenge them in more ways than just playing against good players. other wise the only difference from a normal game is that when i win i get prize Wink

@GobbladasSquig wrote: 'Squiggedit: I also hope steam tanks are included in the "no double monster slots" restriction...
What you don't like playing against double stanks? lol i don' t blame you at all and i don't think you will have to worry about seeing them in play that much ( i only own one after all Very Happy )

hey Carson could we please add in that limit on rank and file units like Eric says, say like a max of 30-40 guys in a unit. i think that is quite a good idea and it stops the big forever last units that are not much fun from rearing there ugly head's

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  GobbladasSquig on Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:25 pm

@Kuyp wrote:there is a flip side to the limit as well that may be over looked, for example without the restriction you could have all the tooled up vamps or tooled up slann, but that also means that as an empire player i can take my "tooled up" LV 4 with a full company of priests that say you will never get a spell off with out IF and still have my horde's of infantry roaming about.
That is a good point. Although those problems could be probably dealt with (better) by different restrictions. But anyways, I kind of like the 850 point cap, it's not too bad. Smile

@Kuyp wrote:Also keep in mind that it is a tournament, personally i would prefer it if there were more rules of engagement added in to take a player out of there element and challenge them in more ways than just playing against good players.
I agree, but ideally changing the rules would treat everyone as equally as possible and progress the balance of the system. Ideally. Meaning I understand Eric's point of view but really, personally, I don't care that much. Smile

'Squiggedit: I also agree with the idea of a restriction for über-units. Either a model cap or preferably a points cap for all units.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  nathanr on Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:13 pm

One thing that Eric said that I agree with is that the Blood and Glory scenario will help shape people's lists. That scenario makes it tough to run a big death-star type unit since all your opponent needs to do is to kill your general and he's won. He doesn't need to beat the unit, just kill the general inside it so I could run a lord with killing blow or even a bunch of empire handgunner units with sharpshooters to pick the dude out of the unit.

Edit: Hmm, I wrote a big long reply earlier but I must not have hit reply or something. Probably for the best though, it wasn't going to do much other than stir up shit so I won't bother re-posting it. Bottom line, I agree with Carson's composition rules and I think they will make for a balanced and fun tournament (as they always seem to be) regardless of what some others might say.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:21 pm

Eric, why not just run a tourny yourself? Late feb-marchish would probably be good timing for league dudes and I'm sure Carson would like just actually playing in a tourny for once instead of committing a weekend away from the family and stuff just to hand out prizes, settle arguments, and hear about how out of touch he is in 8th edition.

I'll throw my support into your tourny right now. Regardless of comp or scenarios or anything. Seriously, for sure you have the most opinion on what you'd like to see and most around here seem to not care as much so I bet that you'd get their support too. You might even be right and then perhaps we'd have a newer concept model to base all future events around.

Carson's ideals of what warhammer should best represent get to stay intact until someone else steps up and picks up the burden of running an event or two. I may not know jack shit about 8th edition (I thought power stones still just tossed an extra couple of dice into the mix, I didn't know what the big deal was. They do sound pretty retarded!) but I do know that running and coordinating an event is fairly thankless. You can either struggle to find a system that appeals to as many other people as possible and hope people show up or you can model an event after an image you have in your mind of something you personally would like to attend. I think it's more than fine for Carson to put whatever restrictions he likes on anything he's running. And, as you said Eric, worst case scenario is people vote with their feet.

I'm in for the January event and happily in for the next event too. Whomever is running it and regardless of the format. I look forward to bustigating my Orcs out. Actually, come to think of it they've been in my trunk for over a year. I wonder what kind of shape they're in now.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:30 pm

The comp rules themselves weren't what I took issue with.

The problem I have is with the attitude expressed by "Crutches anyone Sad"

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:20 pm

@RickyDMMontoya wrote:You know what? I'm not gonna come. Even though I'm number 1 on the Master's list and have (easy) money on the line.

I'm not even going to offer suggestions to fix those comp rules because people take such issue when I do that, so I'm just going to vote with my feet.

Don, take your time with the Daemons, looks like this tournament isn't a deadline after all.

Am I mistaken that this sounds like you have an issue with the comp rules?

Look man, I am not being negative here. You always have a different idea of how things should be done from comp on to other things. Give it a shot! If you truly, truly want people to try things your way host your own event man. I'll come, I'm sure our little community will support it.

You'd have freedom to do anything you want. Try out some crazy Australian rules compy thingy like we discussed way back in the day, open lists, limit unit sizes... whatever. This isn't like a "nut up or shut up" kind of deal, I really think that we should all give your ideas a shot. The only real fair way of doing that though is to get you to do the legwork and organization for it. I think this is a good idea. I think one of two things happen...

1) Everything goes great and you like hosting tournies. Great! Carson could use a break from it.

2) You don't enjoy it and you gain an appreciation for the events others put on.

Nobody loses, sign me up man!

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  squalie on Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:33 pm

Before this degrades into the Legendary battle thread with Johnny Cash pictures and miss-sent pm's, let's just deal with the comp as stated and turn our attention to making creative lists differently than we're used to.

700 pts seemed minimal, but I had no issue with the rest of the comp. Prevented me from taking 2 Hellcannons -- which was the point. Very Happy Now that the limit is 850, I've made lists that I'm completely satisfied with and I'm ready to go.

Try out some crazy Australian rules compy thingy like we discussed way back in the day,

I still say we should try that.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:37 pm

How's an all mounted army doing nowadays? Thinking about that for my OnG. Can only infantry do the horde thing or can cav do it too?

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  Kuyp on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:04 pm

everything can do the horde formation, in the case of cav though only the riders get to attack in subsequent ranks

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  nathanr on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:16 pm

I'd be hesitant to try it because of the steadfast rule. Bretonnians got hit less since the lance formation allows them to field fully ranked units of cavalry without having to pay for 20 knights but any other army will be faced with a steadfast unit that is much less likely to break from a charge. Less armoured cavalry that relied on killing the front rank to survive really can't do it either because of the stepping up rules and the fact that models strike in initiative order. The role of fast cavalry has diminished as well since march-blocking is now much harder and less reliable.

All that said, if you built your army right and had your plans worked out I think it would be do-able and fun to try, especially with orcs and goblins since the models are cheap enough that you could actually afford to make the bigger units that you'd probably need to make it work.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  TheWade on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:45 pm

The sad thing is, and I am totally not being negative here, these comp rules may preclude me from playing. I'm not sure I have the models to make a 2500 point army under these rules.

I'll see what I can put together I spose because I wouldn't want to miss playing with Scott again.

No malice at all in this next question...but why can't we just play Warhammer out of the box?

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  nathanr on Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:42 pm

If you need some extra models just ask around, I'm sure someone would be happy to lend you a few for the tournament.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  squalie on Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:37 am

I'm going to see if I can drag a couple of Moose Jaw guys up for the day. Might have two that are interested. Dark Elves and Ogres.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  Mhael on Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:49 am

Wow didn't realize all this was going on. I say thanks to Carson for trying to change our thought patterns of what a list should be comprised of and a BIG THANKS for putting these tournies on. I couldnt tell you how many he has spent the day at the den and not played. I know he will likely say that he is glad to do it because that is a part of who he is but come on who wants to hang out all day and not throw dice?
If anyone thinks that their army will suffer because of the comp ask around I know several of us have more than one army and I personally will lend out whichever I choose not to use.
I think if we try this style and we dont like it put it to a vote and we can try something different next time. I have only played a couple of years but some of youse have played for around the decade mark. What is ONE tourny going to affect compared to all that dice rolling? Come out play your strategy and worst case scenario enjoy a beer after.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  Pud on Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:31 am

the 22nd does not work for me, will be at work for the day. Darren

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  squalie on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:00 am

the 22nd does not work for me, will be at work for the day. Darren.

Geez Darren, it's sounds like you might be getting the Flu....on the 22nd of January.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  nathanr on Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:34 pm

It is one of those rare varieties that has a long incubation period and then BAM! on the day that you need off it hits. All you are able to do is roll dice and measure distances on a tape measure, definitely not work.

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  Pud on Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:11 am

work at a rink, boss is away on a road trip no one else but me

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  ScottRadom on Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:41 am

If you work at the Hague arena... FUCKIN' PAY ME!

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  Ironwoulf on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:13 am

@Pud wrote:work at a rink, boss is away on a road trip no one else but me

maybe we can move the tournament to the rink? Is it liscenced?

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  GobbladasSquig on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:42 am

Warhammer on ice, now there would be a solution to any money problems GW might have. Very Happy

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Re: Masters Round4

Post  Carson on Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:58 pm

You don't know how many times I wished the den was liscenced. It would of solved alot of troubles for the me as an organizer.

On another note I though I would address some of the issues that always come up when I run an event. I've never bothered to explain my stance of these topics before as I felt that players that have been around for quite some time would have grasped the concepts by now, however, as we have a number of new players now would be a good time.

First off, I've played this game for along time and, when I was single, made it a point to attend as many tournaments (mainly out of province) as I possibly could. From traveling so much to other areas and seeing first hand how things are done I grew an appreciation and an insight into what makes a good event. Now I'm not saying it has resulted in making my events the best, which they are far from ( I find it alot harder to put as much effort into events now with marriage as I did in the past).

The main thing that was emphasised to me from other organizers was to make sure that the lowest player on the totem pole had as much fun as possible. This was accomplished by comp. In fact out of the 100 or so tournaments I have gone to, I can count only nine or ten events that did not have comp.

I'll never forget the first serious tournament that I attended. William Hughes, Derek Brown and myself traveled to Calgary to have a go at magicCon. A large and well run event that had been running for many years. I took a Dark Elven army that I had been using for some time that I thought was a typical DarkElven force. I scored a nice 3 out of 20 on comp. Dismantled all 3 of my opponents with ease but had a terrible time in my games. All three of my opponents commented to me that they had no chance against my force and that they did not wish to fight against it again. I was "that guy". Not what I was looking for when I went to meet new players and become a part of the "larger" Warhammer community. It was a terrible feeling to Know that I had probably ruined part of my opponents day and that fingers might have been pointed at me.
Now, if it sounds cool to do that to all your opponents then this hobby is probably not the best fit for you. If your going to deal with a live human being across from you then you really need to have social skills and an understanding of fair play.

So......what does comp do then. Quite simply it prevents some average joe from turning up to a tournament and getting completely destroyed with no chance to even ask WTF. It's simple, ask yourself this. Everyone and I mean everyone has fought an opponent who had a list you could not beat with your army. It was awesome fun wasn't it? You took time out of your day so that you could come down to a store and pay money to have someone kick you in the nuts. Great.

Secondly, it encourages players to build an army that they "AND" thier opponent will have fun with. One of the most important rules ideas given to me was from our friend Kieran, who said that you really need to keep in mind the question.....will my opponent have fun fighting against my army.

Last, comp informs everyone as to what they may be facing. So, looking through what I have for comp. 1 you know you'll face at a maximum 850 pts of char. So you might see a dragon rider but he won't have many cronies with him, you won't see 2 chaos lords or tyrnats running around the field butchering everything they see. 2 You won't see suicide characters dropping nuclear bombs on your head with powerscrolls. 3 No, no double hydra's or steam tanks, and you won't be facing maxed out warmachines to ruin your game by turn1........pretty tough hey.

The arguements I always tend to see against these events are usually from guys that warhammer language has coined "powergamers". Now I'm not throwing out insults as everyone has a differentr concept of warhammer fun. What I'm saying is that many players take pleasure in building the best possible list that noone has a chance against. Cool, if thats your thing, but that sounds like 40k to me or the Ard'boyz events that have sprung up. Those tournaments are about one thing, and thats list building. There not for game play and friendships, or community but who can build the toughest list possible.

The most troubling aspect of the drama here recently has been the fact that all the rules for my events are always posted up front and everyone knows what to expect. So why are there problems? Good question? If you hate the idea or rules, then don't come, please.

My goal for any event I run is to bring us fellow hobbyiests together. To stay in touch with a sense of community, where everyone goes in, has fun with a love for the hobby, and leaves with the feeling one gets with a day well spent. I don't run events to get rich (they actually cost me money) or for my health (I love getting told I'm out of touch with reality).

Those are my thoughts, I hope this informs some of the newer players why I run events this way.

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Re: Masters Round4

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