The effect of monster mounts

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The effect of monster mounts

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:56 am

Had an interesting discussion with a semi-ignorant dude at the Regina League night about the effect of being mounted on various things on killing blow.

In my opinion the Killing Blow rules are quite clear on the types of models it is effective against:
Killing blow is only effective against infantry, cavalry and war beasts - all other creatures are considered either too large to be felled by a single blow (monsters, monstrous infantry/cavalry/beasts, chariots and so on) or too numerous for a well-placed strike to slay them all (Swarms).

Likewise, page 104 is equally clear that:
A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purposes, except as noted below.
...
If a character has a cavarlry mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type: 'cavalry' and follows all the rules for both characters and cavalry models.
...
Very rarely, a character will have the option to ride a monstrous beast. In this case, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'monstrous cavalry' and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models.
...
If a character has taken a chariot as a mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot' and follows all the rules for both characters and chariot models.
...
If a character has a ridden monster, the whole model is treated as having the troop type monster and thus follows all the rules for both characters and monster models.

So if you ride anything bigger than a horse, you (rider or monster) are immune to killing blow.

See here for an interesting discussion on other ramifications of this:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274403

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  servantes on Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:36 am

Sounds right to me ... my Skaven Warlord can ride a Bonebreaker Rat Ogre - the rules are clear that it is a monstrous mount and you follow the rules - so you use the model as 1 combined model ... killing blow does not effect it.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  nathanr on Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:21 pm

I agree with everything except with the case of the character riding a monster (griffon, dragon etc.). You can target the character or the monster in close combat which is something you can't do with any of the other mounts. The rules aren't as clear in this case and I can see how it could be argued either way. I'm sure a FAQ will clear this up though.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  squalie on Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:30 pm

So, what are you saying Eric, that the fellow was arguing this and felt Killing blow should affect characters ridden on monsters?

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  Carson on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:41 pm

I don't know, if you go by what the book reads characters on monsters would be immune....yes/no?

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:42 pm

Yeah exactly. He made Nathan's argument, which I have to say, I think has no merit. Killing blow says nothing about targeting requirements. And the rider is not infantry or cavalry while he's on the monster, he's part of a single model that counts as a monster for all rules purposes.

No part of a monster can be killed by killing blow. The rider is just part of the single model.

Under 7th it was totally different. They changed the rules significantly. The rules are different now.

Yes. Characters on mounts are immune to killing blow. One model with the corresponding rules that apply to the whole.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  Kuyp on Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:48 pm

i would think that for sure now characters on mounts get the immunity to killing blow, it may be why they made the distinction between killing blow and heroic killing blow as well.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  nathanr on Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:27 pm

Fair enough, I wasn't necessarily saying that you are wrong Eric, I'm mostly saying that it isn't 100% clear and it is one of those things that could be argued relatively sucessfully either way. I think it will need to be FAQ'd before this argument goes away for good.

That said, I actually prefer to play it the way you are saying it works. It makes the most sense to me.

Now as to the link you provided, how would you say that works?

Edit: The unit type of a character on a monster is actually "Ridden Monster" not just "Monster", I don't think that affects the argument either way though.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:09 pm

No, actually it has the troop type "monster." Just plain "monster." I already quoted the rule:
If a character has a ridden monster, the whole model is treated as having the troop type monster and thus follows all the rules for both characters and monster models.

As to the spell? I would say it effects both. But I am not 100% sure HOW it effects both.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  nathanr on Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:33 pm

The reference sheet for the Island of Blood shows Prince Althran Stormrider is listed as having the unit type "Ridden Monster". Its not from the big red rulebook but in the back of the big red rulebook it doesn't have any combined models listed so there is no other precident. Every special character that rides a monster is listed in the back of the big red book as being infantry while their monster is listed seperately as being a monster. Many places in the "Ridden Monsters" section it refers to Ridden Monsters as well. Of course there is also a line which says that ridden monsters are still monsters and are affected by everything that would affect a monster so really it is just wording anyway.

But like I said in my last post this really has nothing to do with the original post and I don't see how it would actually affect anything in a game anyway.

As for the spell, there is a line which states that special rules which apply to the character don't apply to the mount and vice versa, would that apply here or are spell effects dealt with differently? I don't have the rulebook with me right now and the pirated one I found online is missing pages, specifically the magic phase.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:48 pm

Spells aren't Special Rules. All of the Special Rules are found on pages 66 to 79.

All of the Troop Types are listed on pages 80 to 87, being: Infantry; Monstrous Infantry; Cavalry; Monstrous Cavalry; Swarms; War Beasts; Monstrous Beasts; Monsters; Chariots; War Machines; and Unique Units.

"Ridden monster" isn't a Troop Type, in fact, I don't think it's anything anymore. It is just a heading title for when characters ride monsters. Characters on Monsters are just a single model treated as a monster and as a character, with some special rules for shooting and close combat and wound allocation. And then when/if the monster dies, the character turns into whatever he would otherwise be (generally Infantry).


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Right on the fence

Post  Ddodge on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:30 pm

Oh Warhammer!- the game with rules that makes for pages and pages of people debating rules that should be clear by the 8th version. So killing blow and a character mounted on on a monster:
1. we know you can target either one, its your choice.
2. We would assume that if you have heroic killing blow you would be able to target and then kill the big beast.
3. Following that then- I would agree with a person who wanted to use killing blow on my orc big boss on a wyvern.
However, (there are always howevers) I can also see how the rule stating that they are treated as one model can be read.



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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:46 pm

It would take heroic killing blow to kill either.

It is just one model. That model has two parts that can be attacked separately in close combat, but the whole thing is treated as a monster. No rules for infantry apply as long as the monster is alive.

I think the rules are so clear that no FAQ is needed.

Character on monster = one model that counts as monster.

Killing blow only works on infantry, cav, monstrous cav.

Kiling blow does not work on character on monster.

Heroic kiling blow? Go nuts.

I think some people are just used to the 7th edition rules that treated them as two models in one model. The 8th edition rules are clear. Only one model. That model happens to have two separate wound values that are tracked individually, but one model is one model, and that entire model counts as a monster. Not infantry in any way, shape or form.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  nathanr on Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:57 am

Killing blow does not work on monstrous cavalry. I think you meant to type war beasts as in "Killing blow only works on infantry, cav, [war beasts]"

Whether or not you or anyone else thinks that there is no FAQ required won't stop the debate, it is ambiguous enough that people are going to interperet it differently until GW makes it crystal clear in a FAQ.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  Carson on Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:30 pm

I know I for one am having trouble "forgetting 7th". Not so much rules wise but actual game mechanics. ie what worked in 7th does not work anymore in 8th. 8th is really a whole new game now than just a revision. I knew this before hand but every game I play I'm still surprised.

Lovin 8th though Very Happy I've played 5 games in 8th......lost all 5 but am having the most fun playin in years Exclamation

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  nathanr on Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Is there anyone that can actually get heroic killing blow other than a bretonnian character?

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  squalie on Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:07 pm

Daemons do. My Bloodletters killing blow heroic characters all the time. *Ba-dum-bump..tiish!!*

Thank you folks, I'm here all week.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:46 pm

nathanr wrote:Is there anyone that can actually get heroic killing blow other than a bretonnian character?

The Sphynx terrain thing can give it to anyone.

Also, Skulltaker gets it in challenges.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  Lord_Stash on Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:21 pm

I tried raising this point before on another forum (with no response).

RickyDMMontoya wrote:It would take heroic killing blow to kill either.

It is just one model. That model has two parts that can be attacked separately in close combat, but the whole thing is treated as a monster. No rules for infantry apply as long as the monster is alive.

I think the rules are so clear that no FAQ is needed.

Character on monster = one model that counts as monster.

Killing blow only works on infantry, cav, monstrous cav.

Kiling blow does not work on character on monster.

Heroic kiling blow? Go nuts.

I think some people are just used to the 7th edition rules that treated them as two models in one model. The 8th edition rules are clear. Only one model. That model happens to have two separate wound values that are tracked individually, but one model is one model, and that entire model counts as a monster. Not infantry in any way, shape or form.

Personally I think it is an oversight in the rules , but they do say that a character riding a monster is no longer valid for killing blow ,thus warranting a FAQ to adjust or confirm this case. On the flip side, if he was able to be killing blowed would he be subject to be stomped/superstomped on?

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:06 pm

New FAQ is up. You can now killing blow characters on all kinds of mounts.

Some good changes there.

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

Post  Lord_Stash on Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:47 pm

RickyDMMontoya wrote:New FAQ is up. You can now killing blow characters on all kinds of mounts.

Some good changes there.

....so can you stomp on said character?

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Re: The effect of monster mounts

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