What if you summon too many _____s?

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What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  epengr on Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:42 pm

Okay, I'm working on building a VC army, and summoning seems COOL!

I've bought a bunch of zombies off ebay for cheap (because I'm gonna have the rebase them all, some round baser got his psycho little hands on them).

But, since you can cast necro spells multiple times per turn, it seems to me that you could end up with a LOT of zombies if you get lucky. Or a few lucky rolls with Wind of Undeath and you could have too many Spirit Hosts. (I guess with The Master Powers, you could end up with too many anything).

What's the typical rule for this? No model, too bad? Or do people usually allow proxies or counters?

[url=One Monk Miniatures]http://onemonk.com/Undead.html[/url] has some surprisinging appropriate paper minis that would make awesome proxies, if that's allowed. Since I've borrowed a friends craft cutter for some papercrafting I was doing, I ran off a couple sheets of these minis.

What do ya think?








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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  squalie on Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:19 am

This thread should run a page or two..... Very Happy

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  Rockn J on Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:52 am

I really think that any game between friends, go nuts. tournaments though, probably won't fly.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  epengr on Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:31 am

I guess my question then is, in a tournament, if I summon more wounds worth of models than I have on hand, I'd be screwed?

I have 80 zombies, but I want to incluse at least 50 of them in the base army - I'll probably be fine there. I only have 3 spirit hosts though, and you need at least 3 to include thm as a unit. For $20+ each I won't be stocking up on those...

Rockn J wrote:I really think that any game between friends, go nuts. tournaments though, probably won't fly.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  Rockn J on Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:20 am

despite the cost of GW modles there are alternatives. I would not be thrilled to see cardboard cut outs on any battle. I dont even like playing the grey tide but Ive done it myself before. I realize it can be dificult to get your whole aramy purchased never mind table top ready. I guess if you realy want to feild a unit and you proxy them to try it out, it's alright. Try not to think of it as a soulution though, and I realy think no go in a Tourny.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  epengr on Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:01 am

I agree 100%, I wouldn't want to field a unit of proxies. But I think it must be impossible to own enough zombies to cover the number you could summon if you got lucky.

Casting Invocation of Nehek, you have a 50% chance of casting it on one die and would average 7 (D6(3)+4) new zombies per cast. If you have 10 power dice, not hard with vamps, that's an average of 35 new zombies per turn! With lucky rolls you could easily see 50! Taking the average and figuring 4 dispel dice would counter 2 casts on average that's still 21 per turn.

What do other VC players do in this event? Or do they all just start with no Zombies on the table and summon a second army in the first 2 turns Twisted Evil.

It almost sounds like I'm complaining. I'm really not Wink. I'm just trying to plan how best to use the models I have and figure out what my list will end up looking like so I can decide what else I need/want to buy to table an army.


P.S. I'll do my best to paint everything before I feild this army, as primer grey does not tend to induce fear in one's opponent. Besides, I should play my Lizards more than 6 times before I move on to another army...



Rockn J wrote:despite the cost of GW modles there are alternatives. I would not be thrilled to see cardboard cut outs on any battle. I dont even like playing the grey tide but Ive done it myself before. I realize it can be dificult to get your whole aramy purchased never mind table top ready. I guess if you realy want to feild a unit and you proxy them to try it out, it's alright. Try not to think of it as a soulution though, and I realy think no go in a Tourny.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  Carson on Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:07 am

In pic up games use proxie models...no paper or dice. In a tournament though if you don't have enough zombies then its tough luck.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  epengr on Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:13 am

That's to the point. Thanks!

How about league games??? Wink


Do any VC players have experience with this? Am I making an issue out of nothing?

Is anyone playing VC in the league this time around and want to eat some lizards? Show me how it's done?

-David

Carson wrote:In pic up games use proxie models...no paper or dice. In a tournament though if you don't have enough zombies then its tough luck.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  squalie on Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:40 am

There are a few examples in the game, where in a spell description, etc, it says that if you do not have the models then you do not get the models.

I can be pretty outspoken on this topic and feel that if you need the models then one should own the models. It's simply part of the game/army we play. I'm going to let you deduce how I would feel about playing against paper cut-outs. Laughing

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  epengr on Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:09 pm

Yeah, I was actually surprised that there was no such proviso in the rules for summoning.

I would not be happy with a player summoning 35 paper zombies. But if there were 80 zombies on the table and the player was a dozen short, they would bug me less filling out the back rakcs (until they were killed) then making up an entire unit.

It seems to me that this would be a pretty common issue for VC players (and probably others?), so I thought there would be a well accepted answer. What was I thinking??? Wink

I guess the safe answer is to keep summonig zombies untill you run out and the start dancing them forward and cursing the crap out of your opponent.

Or by a Bag o' Zombies, and flesh out your rear ranks with zombie munchins... Very Happy By the time I feild 80 Zombies, the back ranks are gonna be far away and would appear smaller anyways...



squalie wrote:There are a few examples in the game, where in a spell description, etc, it says that if you do not have the models then you do not get the models.

I can be pretty outspoken on this topic and feel that if you need the models then one should own the models. It's simply part of the game/army we play. I'm going to let you deduce how I would feel about playing against paper cut-outs. Laughing

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  squalie on Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:28 pm

We'll all just do our best to kill the zombies so it becomes a moot point! Razz

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  nathanr on Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:10 pm

Yah, at the rate zombies die you should be ok. I always thought the rules were that you could only summon as many as you had models for but I guess it isn't written that way?

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  epengr on Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:36 pm

They all refer to models. "regains D6 wounds worth of models", "...create a new Zombie unit with 5D6 models..." AND most say MAY add/create/etc, not MUST, so if you don't have models, you could interpret that as you can't.

None or them say "add X models or, if you're too cheap to buy our models, proxies to the unit", that's for sure Smile.

Winds of Undeath may be an exception, since it does wounds to every enemy unit (on a 4+) and "...a new Spirit Host is created...with a number of wounds equal to the number of wounds inflected by the spell." Not may be, and no reference to models. The unit is just create. period.

I'm no rules lawyer, but it occurs to me that if my opponent already had all 80 of his zombies on the table, I would probably read the above to mean he can't add more unless I kill some first...

The spirit host thing is a bit different... But I was thinking i could make up some bases with cotton plumbes that would look pretty good and could represent Spirit Hosts in the process of taking shape out of nothing. Anything's better than paper!




nathanr wrote:Yah, at the rate zombies die you should be ok. I always thought the rules were that you could only summon as many as you had models for but I guess it isn't written that way?

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  squalie on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:27 pm

VC's a funny army. You can start a game with 2250, massacre the other fellow and have 2350 including new Ghouls at the end of the game. Exaggerating to clarify, but you know what I mean.

I read a battle report where a fellow brought 60 extra Ghouls as he knew he'd need them!

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  epengr on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:04 pm

I think that's pretty much what Dominique did to me when we played, but he was using Empire! Shocked



squalie wrote:VC's a funny army. You can start a game with 2250, massacre the other fellow and have 2350 including new Ghouls at the end of the game. Exaggerating to clarify, but you know what I mean.

I read a battle report where a fellow brought 60 extra Ghouls as he knew he'd need them!

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  Mhael on Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:10 pm

I would have a hard time playing against a paper army but not because I disagree just because I would be too busy laughing my arse off at the cartoonish look it has in comparison to the real models. In all aspects the game is a visual one but I will never discredit a guy for any proxies, this hobby is expensive especially when you are just trying lists out. I know I ended up with way more figs than I will use but I am in it for life. Hate those damn etheral creatures those, too hard to kill for the damage they can inflict.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:07 pm

epengr wrote:They all refer to models. "regains D6 wounds worth of models", "...create a new Zombie unit with 5D6 models..." AND most say MAY add/create/etc, not MUST, so if you don't have models, you could interpret that as you can't.

Right, it does say regain D6 wounds worth of MODELS. Not paper cutouts or bare bases.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  Nathan.A. on Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:34 pm

I personally wouldnt mind, as i have used dice a couple times to represent zombies as playing a horde based vamps army can be very expensive. One thing that bugs me about vamps is the cost of stuff, just to field a unit of 20 zombies and use them to tarp you need like 50, because u never know when your going to be fighting a frenzied unit of 4 attack each chaos chosen Sad and need every one of those 50 zombies just to keep them tar pitted for 2 turns. I say use proxies, or dice, or whatever, but as someone else said in the post don't use them as a permanent solution, as long as your making an effort to phase out the proxies eventually i would be totaly fine with that. Oh and a good way to use spirit host without breaking the bank is to buy two of them, get extra bases, then only put two ghost minis on each base. You get 3 for the price of 2, and they dont even look that bad.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  epengr on Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:42 pm

Thanks for your thoughts - for some reason I figured you'd have a different take on it Wink. eBay has left me with lots of zombies and little money, so I should be okay. I may prepare some proxies just in case, depending on the list I end up with.

I was thinking of doing that with bat swarms (some new, some from WHQ and some extra bases), I didn't think of doing it with spirit hosts but they do look a little crowded with three, actually...

Nathan.A. wrote: Oh and a good way to use spirit host without breaking the bank is to buy two of them, get extra bases, then only put two ghost minis on each base. You get 3 for the price of 2, and they dont even look that bad.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  ben the kid is back on Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:06 pm

Meh i would not care.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:38 am

In my opinion, the best spirit host models are well painted ANYTHING ELSE made to look like ghosts.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

Post  Nathan.A. on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:47 pm

True, i saw one spirit host conversion online that was made from empire swordsman i think? not sure about the model, but they were painted to look like ghosts and have to say miles better than the spirit host models that are out.

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Re: What if you summon too many _____s?

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