doubles tournament

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doubles tournament

Post  Carson on Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:47 pm

Ok, so I have the date and rules set for this doubles tournament.


Sat. May.22
Dragons Den
9AM start
3 rounds
2200 points (1100) per player. Must follow all normal army list rules for 1100pts.

Rules............ One character from a Single army will be chosen before the game to act as the army general. All fantasy book rules for "General" apply to this character for both armies in the alliance. A single bsb may be purchased but will only affect units from its own side in the alliance.
..........Panic affects the combined armies as if it was one single army.
.......... 1 extra "masters" point will be awarded to each player of an alliance if they both play either "good" or both play "evil" armies. Ogres count as a wild card (ie they can count as either good or evil) in this concept.
Each alliance generates 2 dice not 2 for each force.

20$ entry fee (10$ per player)
16 players max

*round 1 of this years masters series*

sign up by reply with teams and armies played both here and at the Den please.


Last edited by Carson on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  squalie on Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:14 am

Ok, who wants to be evil with me? PM.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  nathanr on Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:40 am

I'm entering with my brother Graeme. I will bring Wood Elves and he will bring Bretonnians - classic alliance of good.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Ironwoulf on Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:06 am

squalie wrote:Ok, who wants to be evil with me? PM.

I can be your soul mate in evil. Chaos mortals, Beasts (got 5 chariots), Dark elves,

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Lord_Stash on Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:02 pm

Im in. I have Chaos, Chaos, and Daemons.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  TheWade on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:53 am

Hey Carson, a couple quick questions and a slight suggestion...

First, the suggestion...how about we allow the BSB to affect both sides just like the general? Maybe make people take a general from one side and a BSB from the other?

And then the question...if the BSB only effects one side, then does this apply to his banner as well? Take for example the 125 WoC banner...and honestly, in 1100 points that'd be crazy...but it affects all friendly units within 6". Would this apply to the ally as well?

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Carson on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:48 am

Nope the bsb just affects units from its own force and it applies to the effects of banners as well. From the possible combinations of armies its best to keep it this way.

Be prepared to face some possible traitors at the tournament as well.............


Andd Remember.....to sign up you need to sign-up with a partner, so get your teams formed up early. I will also play as someones partner if they cannot find anyone.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  TheWade on Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:41 pm

Here's another question...can a character from one army join the unit of the other?

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:57 pm

Carson wrote:Nope the bsb just affects units from its own force and it applies to the effects of banners as well. From the possible combinations of armies its best to keep it this way.

I vote against that. If it says it affects all "friendly" units then it should affect all friendly units.

After all, GW has already said that the Standard of Chaos Glory, which just says "Daemons" will even make your enemies stubborn, so why wouldn't your allies be equally affected by a banner? Sure if it says "friendly Undead" then you better be Undead to benefit, but if it just says "friendly" then fair game!

Also, why draw the line with magic standards? There are dozens of spells, abilities, magic items, that affect "friendly" units and models. They should all affect both parts of the allied army. Are you going to prevent them all from crossing over? That seems to defeat the point of playing a team battle in my opinion... If 2 Daemon players teamed up, then why should they both get to be Stubborn with the Standard of Chaos Glory, while if a Chaos player and Daemon player allied and used the Banner of the Gods, they wouldn't?

After all, it's not like standards, spells and magic items that affect "enemy" units will only affect one of the two enemy players, so why should beneficial stuff only affect one of the two friendly players? It would provide an unfair advantage to items which affect "enemies" or "all models" and a disadvantage to items that affect "friendly" models. As another example, the Beastmen Skull of Rarkos gives +1 to casting attempts of friendly Beastmen shamans within 6". The Skull of Katam gives +1 to casting attempts of ALL Wizards within 3". Why should a Chaos/Beastmen alliance be able to benefit from the Skull of Katam, but a Beastmen/Beastmen alliance can't benefit from the Skull of Rarkos?

In my opinion, preventing "friendly" effects from benefiting both players is unfairly diminishing the value of those items. Sure it can lead to some wacky combo's, but in my opinion, that's half the fun of a team battle anyways!

GW has also already distinguished between "friendly" and "your" in the items and spells. If it says "friendly" make it affect both players. If it says "your" then only the player it belongs to. If it says "enemy" then both enemies. If it says "all" then it affects everyone.

Easy peasy.

Please consider reversing your position on this issue.

I do vote against characters crossing the lines though.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Mhael on Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:16 am

In Carson's defence your argument doesnt hold too strongly as the rules affect every army the same way. The problem I see is that you can possibly have army lists that are designed to take advantage of special abilities from other army books and make deathstar units. Not too much fun.

I do like the idea of allowing the bsb to cover both allied teams as it is an army standard which both sides can see. In history many nations have formed alliances and fought under one army sigil. I would be ok either way though as there is a traitor scenario which could cause the 'other' half to completly lose a bsb.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  nathanr on Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:48 am

Either way doesn't really matter to me, I'm not bringing a BSB in my half of the army so it doesn't affect me at all. To be fair, I like Carson's rules as they are. To me the doubles game is more about how the two armies units work together than how their magic items and special abilities can be combined to create combinations that were not meant to be made.

Either way though, 1100 points per teammate is not enough points to make any really rediculous combos anyway so it doesn't matter to me.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Ironwoulf on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:08 am

I would keep the ruling as Carson has put forward. He is organising and running the tournament. If people wish I am sure they can run a future tournament setting forth thier own rules of engagement

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:34 am

Mhael wrote:In Carson's defence your argument doesnt hold too strongly as the rules affect every army the same way. The problem I see is that you can possibly have army lists that are designed to take advantage of special abilities from other army books and make deathstar units. Not too much fun.

Please provide examples.

I've given examples of items that cost exactly the same, but where one will affect both (actually, potentially ALL) players and the other won't. So please provide an actual concrete example of the sort of deathstar unit that a team game could allow that couldn't reasonably be done in a 2200 point army using a single list.

I also really do think that the distinctions that GW has built into the items, using "enemy," "friendly," "your" and "all" is intended specifically to cover this sort of situation, even if they haven't officially supported multi-player games in a long time. The use of "friendly Orc" or "friendly Undead" and so on also serve to mitigate some of the abilities as well without needing a blanket refusal.


Carson`s answer was only about the magical effects of BSB`s. Are we to assume that spells, items and other abilities are able to affect both sides of the alliance?

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  TheWade on Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:17 pm

Just to say something in Eric's defense...I don't think he is criticizing Carson at all...we LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Carson. Having Carson to run these things is enough reason for me to gladly drive all the way to Saskatoon 3 or 4 times a year just to play with you guys. I LOVE Carson's tournaments.

However...I think there is nothing wrong at all with discussing beforehand the rules, our questions about the rules, and our opinions of the rules. I think doubles tournaments are awesome...specifically because it allows TWO cheesemonkeys...(Jessop and Robinson)...to try and have fun with rediculous combos. The real fun in team games is in seeing how different armies work together. Who wouldn't want to bunker their Vampire in a unit of Chaos Chosen. Seriously...lol...with the Drakenhoff banner. Can you imagine?

I think Eric is right though about certain items having certain effects that might cause issues if things aren't clarified. Can we say Hagtree Fetish in the Beastman half of a Beastman/Tzeentch Daemon army? Wow...I might even dump Jessop just to team up with Squalie and do THAT!

I realize, and totally appreciate, that Carson usually does this stuff solo...if it's a lot of work figuring this stuff out Carson, I'm sure myself, Eric, Jessop...any of us rules lawyerish types, would be happy to contribute to some tournament rulesets.

Just sayin.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:34 pm

Oh yeah absolutely. I didn't think there was any question in that regard at all! Of course I appreciate all the work that Carson does to put on these events and run the league.

By bringing up these issues and giving my position on things, I'm only trying to help Carson make the event even better.

The only problem I have, is that by imposing an artificial cutoff and making it so that "friendly" items don't affect your allies, all of the "friendly" items are being devalued because they can't stack their bonuses, while "enemy" items can.

For example, imagine that there is an Ogre Kingdoms/Warriors of Chaos alliance and the Warriors player has taken the Doom Totem (enemies with line of sight to it are -1Ld) and the Ogre Kingdoms player has a Butcher with the Skullmantle (enemy units taking any Leadership test due to the Butcher suffer -1Ld) who casts Brain Gobbler (take a Panic test) on an enemy that can see the Doom Totem. In this case, since both of the effects are on the "enemy," the effects stack, and the enemy would take a Panic test at -2Ld.

Now imagine that there is an Ogre Kingdoms/Warriors of Chaos alliance, and the Warriors player has taken the Banner of the Gods (friendly units within 6" become Stubborn) and the Ogre player has a unit with the Rune Maw (may redirect spells from target unit to friendly unit within 6"). In this case, following the idea that banner effects don't affect both players, Ogre units within 6" of the Banner of the Gods would not be Stubborn, and the Ogre player couldn't redirect spells onto Warriors units within 6" of the Rune Maw.

Why should the enemy effects in the first example be allowed, and the friendly effects in the second example be forbidden?

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Carson on Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:08 pm

Don't sweat it guys. I felt that it could only make things much easier by limiting the doubles tournament to "2 seperate armies" in an alliance. The only caveat of having a single general and bsb.

This last weekend Bob and myself along with Kieran and Jeremy tryed out a doubles game with some scenario twists.....it was alot of fun. But right from the start we saw some of the potential troubles of letting two different army books work as one.

Now I'm not saying it can't be done but frankly I'm don't want to be deciding rules issues all day long.

If you guys can come up with something simple and concise we could sure try it out.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:13 pm

I would like to treat the two forces as a single army, particularly if we are only getting a single General and BSB out of the deal.
My simple and concise recommendation for all magic items, abilities, spells, etc. under such an arrangement:

Treat "your" or "your own" as meaning simply your own 1100 points worth of units and models.
Treat "friendly" as meaning your own 1100 points worth of units and models as well as your allied partners 1100 points of units and models - the combined 2200 points of the alliance you belong to.
Treat "enemy" as meaning all 2200 points of units and models controlled by both opposing players - the combined 2200 points of the alliance you are opposing.
Treat "all" or "any" as meaning any and all units and models in the game regardless of the controlling player.

We're going to be treating Panic and the General exactly as I have suggested above, so why not everything else?

This actually has the benefit of being the simplest way to do things, because there shouldn't be any rules disputes at all after consulting the chart above:
Who can use the General's Ld? "all friendly units within 12..." Whole alliance.
Who can benefit from the BSB? "all friendly units within 12..." Whole alliance.
Who causes panic? "friendly unit within 6..." Whole alliance
What happens if a chariot runs into units of your partner? "If a chariot flees through a friendly unit..." Smashes them and keeps going.
What happens if a fleeing unit runs across my ally? "fleeing units move straight through friendly units..."
Can I cast Oxen Stands on my allies unit? "This spell can be cast on any friendly fleeing unit..." Yes.
Can I cast Invocation of Nehek on Tomb Kings Skeletons? "Target one of your own Undead units..." No.
Can I cast Vanhel's Danse Macabre on Tomb Kings Skeletons? "This spell can be cast on a friendly Undead unit within 12..." Yes.

If we are going to go the opposite route, and have "two separate armies," then I would recommend making them completely separate, and let each player bring their own General and BSB.

In that case you may need to prepare a case by case answer for all of the above questions, and more, which may arise.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Kuyp on Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:37 pm

I think it would be more fun to have such things like the bsb and magic affect both sides of the alliance. it shouldn't be hard to define things that shouldn't be allowed. like a vampire with the banner of burrows(the one that give Regen to the unit) in a unit of empire knights say. any thing that's sketchy we can discuss and come to a reasonable conclusion.

so I'm all for it especially since so far only one army is allowed to have a bsb

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:41 pm

I think it would be more fun to have such things like the bsb and magic affect both sides of the alliance. it shouldn't be hard to define thighs that shouldn't be allowed. like a vampire with the banner of burrows(the one that give Regen to the unit) in a unit of empire knights say. any thing that's sketchy we can discuss and come to a reasonable conclusion.

Why would that be any more sketchy than a Vampire with the Drakenhof Banner (the real banner that gives regen Wink) in a unit of Black Knights? At least the Empire Knights don't cause fear, can be broken in combat and can't be re-raised!

That said, I would probably recommend not allowing characters from one player to join units of another. Trying to work out what happens with combat resolution with the crumbling vampire in the normal unit in the above example is a good indication of why.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Kuyp on Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:44 pm

RickyDMMontoya wrote:
I think it would be more fun to have such things like the bsb and magic affect both sides of the alliance. it shouldn't be hard to define thighs that shouldn't be allowed. like a vampire with the banner of burrows(the one that give Regen to the unit) in a unit of empire knights say. any thing that's sketchy we can discuss and come to a reasonable conclusion.

Why would that be any more sketchy than a Vampire with the Drakenhof Banner (the real banner that gives regen Wink) in a unit of Grave Guard?

That said, I would probably recommend not allowing characters from one player to join units of another. Trying to work out what happens with combat resolution with the crumbling vampire in the normal unit in the above example is a good indication of why.

that's only sketchy because the vamp is ITP and unbreakable so he couldn't join the unit anyway

plus that's like the only example i could think of without pulling out some books. Very Happy

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:45 pm

Vampires aren't Unbreakable.

Undead, yes. Unbreakable, no.

Wink

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  TheWade on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:03 pm

I like the rules recomendations Eric made. Makes things nice and easy and I think still allows for any cool scenario ideas.

I also, regretfully, agree that characters should stay in their own units. As much as a Gorebull BSB with the Beast banner in a unit of Chaos Knights appeals to me.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  nathanr on Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:36 am

That makes sense Eric, I still like Carson's reasoning that the BSB only affects the one side of the alliance though. It seems more in character with the warhammer world. The Dwarfs would not rally behind a banner of the Empire and the forces of Chaos certainly wouldn't be inspired to see a goblin banner waving on the field. Even if both sides are using the same race, they could be rival tribes/clans/city-states etc reluctantly banded together against a common enemy. If it is a magical banner I think it is alright if the effect affects both sides if it has the proper wording but the re-rolling of failed break tests within 12" should be limited to the half of the alliance that brings it.

If we do take Eric's suggestions its going to mean that everyone needs to actually read their army books, preferably beforehand! I know I'll be going over all the rules again to see what the exact wording is.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  Nathan.A. on Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:08 pm

Hey guys, wondering if anyone wants to team up with me for the Tourney, i'll be playing VC, let me know if you're interested.

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Re: doubles tournament

Post  TheWade on Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:57 pm

Paul Jessop and Wade Robinson will be teaming up with Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos.

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Re: doubles tournament

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