Upcoming league

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Upcoming league

Post  Carson on Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:12 pm

Hey guys,

We'll with the league and playoffs over its time to look forward to the next one and to settle any new ideas or changes we wish to make. There was some talk of changing the playoff format?

So, we'll gear up a new league in April and we'll kick it off with an intro tournament (1250pts). This will also be the first round of our annual masters tournament series.
Any ideas for a prefered date for this?

Any ideas or concerns, put em down here.

Also, lets all make a concerted effort to physically sign-up at the den in April and pay the 5$ league fee. Darren has more than once stated that he would give us better support ($) if we would all make more of an effort to follow the etiqutte properly.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  nathanr on Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:50 pm

The first two weekends in April are no good for me, the 16th or 17th would be ideal. I'll try to remember to sign up at the den, at the very least people should pay their $5 when they go to play their first league game, they will even take debit or credit so there is really no excuse.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  ScottRadom on Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:51 pm

Okay. I'm gonna try to be a part fo this league. I think I'll shoot for getting 1250 of Lizards assembled for the tourny.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  ScottRadom on Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:51 pm

Okay. I'm gonna try to be a part fo this league. I think I'll shoot for getting 1250 of Lizards assembled for the tourny.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  squalie on Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:04 pm

The 16-17th, would be good as the 24-25th is in Regina.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  ben the kid is back on Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:06 pm

anytime but the 18 of april and the first weekend in april works for me

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  Mhael on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:25 am

I shouldn't have any problem making it out the weekend of the 17th.

Is the kick off tourny required to play your intended league army or free choice?

I think for league set up those who are from out of town or ended on the bottom of ladder should get moved to top spots. This way if out of towners can't reasonably make it to a second or maybe third challenge they would go down a couple spots on the list. This should encourage more play between Saskatoonians and still give a fair chance to the others. Thoughts

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:14 am

I would like to see the current ladder system dropped entirely. It served its purpose in the past, but the composition of the league has changed, and I think it is time to move on. The relative impossibility of climbing the ladder in the current league is a real detriment.

I would like to see something like the following:
- League points are primarily determined by the outcome of games: massacre 8-2, solid victory 7-3, minor victory 6-4, tie 5-5.
- If the two players have not played each other in the current league, the first game the play against each other is worth an extra point.
- Players can also earn an extra point by having a fully painted army.
- Players are also awarded 2 league points for every tournament battle or special event that they attend.

The ladder is based purely on total points. At the end of the league, the top 4 players on the ladder go into playoffs. Any ties for total points will be broken by win/loss ratio, any remaining ties will be broken by a preliminary playoff game.

The brackets would have #1 playing #4 on one side, and #2 playing #2 on the other. If there enough players we could even expand the playoffs to 8 players and 3 rounds, but that would require a certain level of player commitment.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  nathanr on Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:08 pm

The ladder wasn't too tough to climb, I made it pretty much to the top from fairly low down in the ranks. I do agree that it is really easy to get stuck in a spot though because once you fail a ladder challenge match it is often hard to get a re-match. I also agree that the ladder does either needs to be dropped or modified somehow. I like what you are proposing Eric, but there should be some way for people who don't have time to play 2 games a week to make playoffs. What about the top 3 in points and then a wildcard spot for the person with the best win/loss percentage with a minimum of 6 games played or top tournament player? Either that or we could take the top 5 or 6 into playoffs with the first place players getting a bye through the first round although playoffs drag on long enough as it is so that might not be the best idea either. I do like the extra point for first games between players though, I might even take it one step further and say each subsequent meeting is worth 1 less point to encourage players to seek out new opponents.

And Andre, tournaments are usually free choice for army selection. Carson can correct me if I'm wrong about that for this tournament though. I think I'm going to either take Dwarfs or Wood Elves to the tournament and I'll be taking Bretonnians for the league.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  Carson on Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:44 pm

Good points and ideas Eric. The problem with a pure points system is that it only rewards those that can play alot of games. This was the reason for the creation of the ladder and the tier system in the playoffs. ie you can play a truckload of games and get into the playoffs that way or climb the ladder if you just can't play a whole lot of games.

The big problem is climbing the ladder....it can be done as Nathan pointed out but is rather difficult. A suggestion to remedy this could be to allow a challenge on any spot of the ladder. We would have to drop the extra point for ladder challenges but we would see some very fluid ladder motion.

There also needs to be a reward for finishing on the top ladder spot. I'd suggest 3 solutions......top finisher recieves 5 masters points, or we allow the top finisher to change his list between playoff matches, or we expand the playoffs and give a bye to the top spot.


Oh and tournaments have been and always will be free choice.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  nathanr on Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:21 pm

The problem with anyone being able to challenge for the top ladder spot is that everyone will challenge for the top ladder spot all the time. I think if we take Eric's proposed ideas and add the rule that if you play someone that you've already played this league the game is worth 1 less league point each time. Like this:

I play Eric to start out the league. Of course I massacre him Very Happy so the point breakdown is like this:

Me: 8 +1 for playing a new opponent, +2 for being fully painted = 11
Eric: 2 +1 for playing a new opponent = 3

Eric wants a re-match so we play and this time it is a draw

Me: 5 -1 for playing an opponent I've already played, +2 for being fully painted = 6
Eric: 5 -1 for playing an opponent he's already played = 4

We play another one and I again massacre him:

Me: 8 -2 for playing an opponent I've already played, +2 for being fully painted = 8
Eric: 2 -2 for playing an opponent He's already played = 0

And so on. I don't think we need to go to negative points but it will keep people from just playing against the same person over and over to rack up points and the +1 for playing a new opponent encourages people to find new opponents. Plus it gives a bit of a help to people who don't play a lot of games since the games they do play will usually be against new opponents. Tournament games, mega battles etc. would be exempt from these rules of course.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  Mhael on Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:32 pm

I like the idea of giving a bonus to the top spot.
I don't like having a cummulative negative for playing the same person multiple times seems like too much.

We could do away with points for ladder matches and assume everyone is gunning for top spot and the inherit bonus that comes from claiming it, but we limit the amount of spots you can challenge up on a ladder to three spots.

I will be playing dwarfs again but will bring either goblins or empire to the tourny.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  squalie on Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:11 pm

I actually like the cumulative negative points for playing the same opponent. That is a self correcting factor, as I could care less how many times 2 guys have a game, but it does help prevent game spamming and eventually there would be no point to play one another, except for fun. I think Nathan and Eric's idea's should make a baby and I would be up for that.

Nathan, I also noticed that in your example Eric never had a painted army... Wink

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:41 pm

Carson wrote:Good points and ideas Eric. The problem with a pure points system is that it only rewards those that can play alot of games. This was the reason for the creation of the ladder and the tier system in the playoffs. ie you can play a truckload of games and get into the playoffs that way or climb the ladder if you just can't play a whole lot of games.

So the problem with the system I have proposed is that it encourages players to have games??

I kind of thought that was the idea behind having a league.

Why shouldn't the player who plays the most games end up in the top spot? I can't imagine any resistance to that. Hell, Don has the best excuse of any of us to play the fewest games, and he seems to be ok with it.

I don't want to see any sort of gameplay advantage to the top spot. Playoffs should be about the game.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  nathanr on Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:47 pm

Nathan, I also noticed that in your example Eric never had a painted army...
That was to add realism! I also put it in to show how having a painted army can help you in the points standings.

The -1 per repeat game isn't that bad, if you get a massacre every time and have a painted army you can play 11 games before you don't get any points. By that time you will have racked up 56 league points which would have put you in 5th place in this last league. It is meant to push people to get games in against people they don't ordinarily play which should be what the league is about. The ladder was actually quite good for that as it encouraged people to challenge the people directly above them, no matter who it was. If we are doing away with the ladder I think we need something in place that will do a similar job.

As for a bonus for coming out on top in the league, I think the bonus masters points or a bye through the first round of playoffs would be suitable, I don't think there should be a gameplay bonus though. It is a huge advantage to be able to change your list between playoff games and I think the playoffs should be all about the games, not about who had the advantage beforehand.

P.S. For the sake of interest, if someone played 11 games against new opponents with a fully painted army and won by massacre each time they would have 121 points (and be playing daemons!)

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:00 pm

I think that doing a 1-4 2-3 playoff bracket system is enough of an advantage.

I think the cumulative -1 per game is a good feature as well.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  Carson on Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:54 pm

Good discussion here, just what I was hoping for.

Eric, we already reward those who play alot of games by placing the top two in points in the playoffs. Now these two players might not ever have won a game but by the cumulative points gained by the volume of games they played.

Ideally the ladder should break down as this.......top two spots belong too the players with the best winning records which allowed them to climb the ladder, top two in points gained by volume of games played. Does this often happen, definitly yes for the top 2 in points, very rarely for the top two ladder spots. Whcih brings me to some sort of incentive for finishing in the top spot.

I also don't like the idea of being able to change lists but I thought I'd throw it out. Even the bye is not enough as we tried this in the past and it still didn't provide an incentive.

Good ideas on the negative points for playing the same player. This would definitly self correct players to seak out new opponents.

On average we have around 10-12 players. Not enough to justify expanding the playoffs. How about the idea of 3 ladder spot jumps and once per league being able to issue a "wild Card" and challenge 5 spots.

Once again....what is the incentive to finish 1st in the league ladder?

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:06 pm

If the ladder is supposed to represent win/loss record, then make it a simple representation of win/loss ratio. Keep the points for games separate. Run it like the NBA standings

Then take the top 2 from the ladder and the top 2 with the most points.

I don't think being #1 on the ladder needs anything beyond bragging rights.

I really hate the idea of a static "ladder" system where you have to try and jump spots.

I would prefer it be just a ranking system. If you want it to represent win/loss record, then so be it, but if the #1 player isn't playing, then he doesn't deserve to be #1.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  Kuyp on Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:40 pm

Something i would like to see changed is the amount of games played. I mean for a league we sure don't seem to get together for games that often. I know it would be difficult to assemble but if we had a night or day that was setup as a “league night” either every week or every other week, i think that we may see more people joining and participating.

For the playoffs, what if the top six players in pure points all to make it to the playoffs, each player plays 1 game with the other 5, then out of the 5 games played you calculate the win loss ratio of each player and where ever they end up is there place. You could take it even further and say that the top 2 of the W/L ratio play for first?

As for the -1 for repeat games, I'm all for it. But i think that there should be a cretin time period where it gets reset. For example i play a game vrs Nathan(R) and get +1 for playing a new person. Now say that 2 weeks or so latter we play another game, should we each get a -1 to our score because we have played each other already? I mean that's going to be tough on Nathans score when he only gets 1 point for a game and the 2 more for being painted. Razz
I think that if 2 players play more than one game in a week they should get a minus – 1 to their score, not just for repeat games.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  Nathan.A. on Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:31 pm

Doesn't seem to be on topic anymore, but i'm in for the 1250 pts tourney on the 15 16 of april or whatever it was, and i agree with the points made about playing the same people, last league i think i only played dom like 4 times, don twice kind of, and joe nathan and andre once. So yeah i really wouldhave liked to play some of the others, oh and i didnt know about the 5 bucks to enter thing, and i was legit in the league so i guess i owe someone 5 bucks, Nathan R right? Anyways I'm excited to find out the rules for the next league, and just to Joe Namath this thing up, i just have to say, I will win this league, i guarantee it. And you can quote me on that.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  Carson on Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:36 pm

I'm having a bit of a dilemna for the upcoming league and tournament as to a date.

2nd last weekend in April is booked for the Regina Tournament. Last weekend my wife will be away and so I have the kids, plus I'm swamped until then with calving.

Should we start the league earlier without a opening tournament or do we shoot for the 7th-9th of may weekend for the start and hold a proper 2200pt tournament with all the bells and whistles?

Also.....any final thoughts on ideas for the upcoming league or do I go with a form of whats been discussed so far?

Let me know!!!!!

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  nathanr on Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:58 pm

May seems like a long way off to wait for the league to start so my vote is to just start it immediately (or in the next few weeks) and then have the bigger tournament in May. I might not be able to make it to the tournament then (my wife is due May 12) but that's just the way it goes.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  Ironwoulf on Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:44 am

Start the league now and have the tournament later in May. (I have 4 tournaments between now and May 8th) I suggest weekend of May 15th. Have a league tie in - the person that plays the most different people gets some sort of 1 use magic item like a special reroll dice.

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:53 am

Lets do a different sort of tournament, like doubles or something like that!

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Re: Upcoming league

Post  nathanr on Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:20 am

If we have a doubles tournament I will drop my wife off at the hospital to have the baby. Its not like I have any part in that process other than getting yelled at and seeing things that no man should ever have to see!

Do you normally pick your partner at the doubles tournaments or is it random for each round?

Also, you realize that May 9 is mothers' day right? The 8th would probably be the better choice that weekend.

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Re: Upcoming league

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