8th edition change to army composition

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8th edition change to army composition

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:47 pm

Seems that one of the big, frequent, and massively verified rumours for 8th edition is introducing the following as army composition requirements:

25% characters
40%+ core
something% special
25% rare

How does that change things for you? It is unclear whether the limits of 1 lord, 4 characters, 3+ core, etc. per points will stay or will be totally replaced by this system, but how do you feel with 500 points of characters on the table in a 2000 point game?

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  ScottRadom on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:33 am

Man, I dunno.

I'm not sure how to feel about it. Initially I know I don't like it. Seems the undoing of a system that once worked, then sort of got washed out with all the exceptions to the rules. If they'd dial back everything to my personal fav period of early 6th edition I'd be happy. Going back further to the 4-5th ed style seems an odd decision.

I guess I'd like to see how they factor it in with any other 8th ed. revisions. I've generally put a sort of self imposed cap of 500 on characters for myself (usually) but I don't see how some armies acan really cope with that ceiling. I'd hate to have to try and make a competitive VC list for example.

Though it might be fun to have 7-8 goblin bosses running around! Maybe that little revision makes the goblin army a viable one?

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  nathanr on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:37 am

Going magic-heavy is going to be a whole lot tougher. Other than that I'm not too concerned with the changes character-wise. My wood elf army is going to have to get a whole lot shootier if I have to spend 40% on core though and I'm not sure I like that much. The 25% rare is going to cut down a lot on the death-star armies that seem to be popping up (not around here).

I think I'm going to have to wait and see what the final numbers are and make a few army lists before I can say for sure what I think.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  Mhael on Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:14 am

If I understand this system correctly I would be forced to take extra characters or rare choices. This is crap of a magnitude that destroys my intrest in playing. Right now I have a 2200 pt list with one character, and fluff wise rare choices should be just that they shouldn't be a demanded unit. In the RARE case that a general thinks he needs to bring a tougher or specialized unit it should be choice not automatic. Also the way things are set up with min core choices I would believe most armies are roughly around 40 percent core.

I think this is a terrible way of setting up army lists but I also haven't played any other edition it just seems to limit the different types of army lists that can be built (ergo more shooty units in typical shooty armies etc).[center]

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  nathanr on Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:39 am

I don't think you HAVE to take 25% characters or rare, it is the maximum you can take. The only one that is required is the 40% (or whatever the final number ends up being) of core so your army should stay pretty much the same as it is. The problem for my armies is that my core choices are really cheap so I'll need to take a bunch more units to reach the 40%.

If the number is 40% then my wood elf army would need 8 units of core to meet it (120 points for 10 glade guard or 10 dryads or 5 glade riders). I suppose I could take 3 units of glade guard and 3 units of scouts and then a unit or two of dryads but in any case it looks like I'm going to have to buy a whole bunch more models. I do like the fact that I'm not limited to 4 special choices though, I could have lots of 5-man wardancer units at 90 points a pop. It will be an adjustment for me but I think the wood elves will be ok once I get a few lists worked out.

My Dwarf army will be pretty much unchanged, just a bit less emphasis on characters which is something that I should be doing anyway. A few less runes on the war machines and a couple more units of warriors or thunderers will just shift how the army works slightly, no drastic changes there.

My bretonnian army is pretty much ruined though. I'll have to drop a bunch of the angel units and add a bunch more knights of the realm which pretty much wrecks the theme of the army for me. Now I'm just going to have a regular bretonnian army with a really fragile lord. Oh well, it wasn't made to be a competitive army and it was fun to build and paint. If nothing else I'll find a place to display it and never use it again.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  squalie on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:19 am

I'm not sure about these rumours. And remember, they're still rumours. Seems weird that if GW is trying to get you to put more models on the table , they made every single Beast unit cost more points, which is the first of the 8th ed books? Why would they do this knowing that some of their models would be useless (Greater Daemons, Dragons, other big mounts, etc?). I like playing bigger games, but I don't want to be forced to do so. If this is their way of balance, I'm not sure it'll work.

My bretonnian army is pretty much ruined though. I'll have to drop a bunch of the angel units and add a bunch more knights of the realm which pretty much wrecks the theme of the army for me. Now I'm just going to have a regular bretonnian army with a really fragile lord. Oh well, it wasn't made to be a competitive army and it was fun to build and paint. If nothing else I'll find a place to display it and never use it again.
That's just crazy talk!

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  nathanr on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:34 am

Well, my knight of the realm units are around 160 points each. For a 2200 point game 40% is 880 points. I have 3 core knight units which adds up to around 500 points so I'm going to need to add 380 points to core. Those points are going to have to come from somewhere and I'm guessing I'll be over the allowed percentage in special (3 200-point units of pegasus knights and a unit of grail pilgrims that is close to 250 points). I suppose I could lose the grail pilgrims but that unit cost a lot of money! I'm sure my wife would be really happy to learn that not only am I not using the $200 unit that I bought, I'm also going to have to drop another $100 on the core troops to replace them!

I guess the percentages do force you to build a more balanced list but I'm not sure that its the right way to approach it. It takes away a lot of flexibility in army building and makes some of the more unique builds impossible. I guess some of the more unique builds were the ones that were causing problems with power-gaming but the less powerful, themed armies are getting the shaft as well I think. Oh well, like you say it's just a rumour right now. I'll calm down and not make any rash decisions until we know for sure.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  squalie on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:44 am

I'm sure my wife would be really happy to learn that not only am I not using the $200 unit that I bought, I'm also going to have to drop another $100 on the core troops to replace them!

You TELL your wife?!?!?! Nathan, we reall need to have a chat..... Razz

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  nathanr on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:09 pm

Don't worry, she spends more than her fair share. I didn't even get to touch my Christmas bonus this year before it was all gone. Unfortunately her hobby is buying clothes for her and my daughter so I can't even complain about it that much since clothing ranks up there in the needs category a little more than plastic and metal figures.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:21 pm

Does anyone think they can make a 2200 point army with:
No more than 25% characters (max 550 points)
No less than 30% core (at least 660 points)
No more than 40% special (max 880 points)
No more than 25% rare (max 550 points)
Keeping within the current 1 lord, 3 heroes, 3+ core, 4 special 2 rares

And play a few games with it this league?

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  nathanr on Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:40 pm

I think its doable, and the 30% core is a whole lot better than the 40% you said earlier. For 8th edition do you know if the percentages are going to completely replace the current system or is it going to be a hybrid of the two?

I probably won't be able to do it this league (as I think it is pretty much over anyway) but I'll for sure keep the percentages in mind for the next league and do my best to make an army list that fits into that.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:48 pm

The percentages will be in the rulebook, but the army books will all still have the limits they are published with, so I cant see how GW would do away with them...

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  Lord_Stash on Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:47 pm

hmmm
25% rare doesnt seem to do anything, it allows you to take two 250pt units, which is more than enough for any army. Also it allows for more rare units than normal: 4 cannons (I think they are rare anyway), well 4-5 of just about any rare war machine, 8 chaos spawn, etc.

25% characters means that chaos dragons are out automatically. Some armies could go uber nuts with magic: How many level 2 goblin shamans can you get for 500 pts? And others would loose their magic competitiveness high elves, chaos.

The armies with cheaper units will exploit this new system like crazy. Sure you can say that you can exploit the current system by taking 2 300 point rare selections, but they also fall into the 2000pt cap which ultimately will reduce your capacity for other selections (where the new system, being able to maximise cheaper units actually helps that army to use this army building tactic in all categories.

7 goblin bolt throwers for rare, a bunch of shamans and whatever you want to take for core....great...

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:13 pm

Like I said, the rumours seem to indicate that the current restrictions will still be in force, because they have always been published in the army books, not the rule books.

The new restrictions will just be built on top of the old.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  Lord_Stash on Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:24 pm

Yeah, but I can see them making 8th ed army books not have those slot restrictions.

Also an 800pt unit of zombies would be a challenge to deal with

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:38 pm

Well people can already take 800 point units of zombies in the current rules, and no one ever does, so I don't see the attraction?

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  GeoffKlassen on Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:43 pm

Taking core is one of the easiest things to take I generally do take lower than 40% of my army and generally it runs as high as 60-70%. Core troops are were all of your disposable troops come from. I find most characters cost you a unit or two. I can take a hero or a unit of 10 crossbow men, or a bruiser is bye bye and I get another unit of 4 ogre bulls. The strength of any army is having disposable units, it is hard to chew through large armies, every try to kill 140 dark elves in a 2000 point game? Specials and rare troops are ment to be just that special.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:52 pm

Well I agree with you Geoff, but I think we're thinking a full edition behind here.

Some of the newer stuff like demons, hydra's etc. CAN chew through a retarded amount of their own cost of opposition. And sometimes numbers just DON'T matter anymore. With all the psychology and stuff it's not the same as it once was.

I used to laugh at the small armies in 6th and early 7th. I fear though that it's swung a little bit towards the elite supermen and units now. I think of things like that DE unit with the ASF banner and just cringe. Does it matter if I have 3 units charging it? Shooting is still super viable I think but I am way past the point of knowing anything about the modern era of warhammer.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  GeoffKlassen on Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:02 pm

I have read the last couple of army books I am starting to get worried about the monster issue that has been dominate in the rare section of the books. That may be why the are enforcing the percentage thing again, I still remember the cockatice in every army to kill the slann. The beastmen needed something to help balance the army because they were always week but hiving the skaven an abominiation or making the DE hydra tougher was just plain shortsighted. They idea of warhammer was fantasy armies duking it out and now it is who's monster can I get into combat first?

I remember my 4th edition undead army with 14 models, 1 liche on a zombie dragon with the cursed book (-2 to hit total) and 13 wraiths i was just plain silly, I hope we don't go there again. I have enjoyed my well rounded high comp armies lately.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:41 am

They idea of warhammer was fantasy armies duking it out and now it is who's monster can I get into combat first?

Well that's someone's idea of Warhammer, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say it's THE idea of warhammer.

I personally love the epic elements like the dragons and Greater Daemons and so on that can kill their weight in enemies. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

On the one hand, it will be really hard to take the lord on the dragon, but on the other hand, if you fit one in, there will be less that could theoretically oppose it.

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  squalie on Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:43 am

I have enjoyed my well rounded high comp armies lately.

You're an Ambassador to the game, quite frankly. Most would like to think that they play "in the spirit of the game" although their list would state otherwise. You actually play, and WIN, with the high comp list everyone else likes to THINK they're playing -- with Ogre Kingdoms no less. Lately, I've fallen in love with Daemons. And even though I've tried to make the (almost) softest list possible....I'm still playing Daemons. I could easily play 40% core, as when I throw a couple Heralds in (less than 25%), it's still a competitive list.

I really can't see the percentage being that much of a problem, as it all balances out when the rest of the books catch up -- which is the problem. Really, the problem is that GW is so big, with so many books that's it's impossible to make any "edition" balanced, as there are simply too many logistics involved and too much lag. There are so many writers, playtesters, PR fellows, accountants, punks, etc..., that it makes any ideas they had 18 months ago irrelevant when the "current" army is released. The only way to fix this is to put an enormous amount of resources into making all of the armies come out at once, but since that will not, and cannot, ever happen then we're stuck with what we're stuck with.

I fondly remember playing the magic phase with cards. I probably remember this "fondly" for nostalgic reasons, but at the time it was simple (If you didn't lose the cards) and when the game changed to dice we figured we'd never play again. "How could this possibly work?" "They have screwed the game for good!". Now, I couldn't imagine playing the game any other way....until 8th edition comes out. Very Happy










Drunk rant # 141


Last edited by squalie on Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

Post  Mhael on Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:18 am

good post I agree a 'wait and see' policy is best

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Re: 8th edition change to army composition

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