New Beasts army book.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  ScottRadom on Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:43 pm

Meh, still disagree Eric. Taking any one part of an army book and comparing leads to frustration. I'm okay with that. I need to compare the whole apple to the other book's orange. That's been bad enough, let alone picking the most abusive/crappiest parts of the books!

And I totally disagree with the Giant being a zero for Orcs. That's why you usually see them! But nowadays ANY Orc army is the least of anyon'es worries.

My dissapointment with GW is the way they change army buidling philosophy from book to book. 6th ed. books were pretty good. Or maybe I am romancing the old days? 7th ed. seems to have been 1/2 6th ed philosophy and 1/2 what looks to be 8th ed. philosophy of perhaps going back a notch to herohammer and the glut of special rules and massive stat lines. I like a nice variety but I hate it when each unit type has to have 3-4 special rules. Annoying.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:49 pm

Meh, still disagree Eric. Taking any one part of an army book and comparing leads to frustration. I'm okay with that. I need to compare the whole apple to the other book's orange. That's been bad enough, let alone picking the most abusive/crappiest parts of the books!

No it doesn't always have to. Harpies are the same cost in the Dark Elf book and Beastmen book. Great Eagles are the same cost in the Wood Elf book as the High Elf book. Giants are the same cost in every book they show up in.

Nearly every instance of exactly the same unit in multiple books is priced exactly the same.

Empire swordsmen, with its advantages in the form of detachments are roughly equal to Dark Elf spearelves at equal point levels.

Empire Great Cannons are a little better than Dwarf Cannons, and are a little more expensive. Dwarf cannons can have runes, in which case they become more expensive.

There are a bout a half dozen stonethrower things we can compare and they are all almost equivalently priced.

I would say that ~85% of the stuff in the game is directly comparable to stuff in other army books at similar prices. The only times it breaks down is in the case of insanely overpriced units and insanely underpriced units.

The Hydras, Hellpit Abominations, Flamers break the system in one way and the Silver Helms, Forsaken, Dragon Ogre Shaggoths all break it in another way.

And a Giant is better than anything else the Orcs can take just because it does not have animosity, so I guess it's a 0.5, but better than bad is not good.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  Kuyp on Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:05 pm

nathanr wrote:I hear what you're saying Eric but I think I interpret the army book differently than you. The way I see it, Beastmen get all kinds of choice as to what kind of army to take and its reflected in their rare choices. Sure you say the treeman is one for one better than any of the three, but the treeman is the only choice for a large monster in a wood elf army while the beastmen have 3 choices. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses and are in some area better than a treeman:

so if wood elves had another large monster that was worse than the treeman at around the same points cost why would you ever build your army around that monster over the treeman? having choice is great but if the options suck well....

Now if you try and compare a monster that has close to the same ability(s) as another and give them the same points cost; for example the Cygor and a stegadon are both large monsters, have war machines, good speed, stubborn, a good toughness, terror ( I'm not sure on that one i haven't seen beasts book), and are close to the same points. but then you look at what else the stegadon has, its ITP, cold blooded, does impact hits, has a unit strength of 10! has a 6W with a 4+ AS and has a skink crew that you have to randomize against when shooting at the dam thing and on top of that its war machine is poisoned. the Cygor has abetter LD/ M/ A/S then the stegadon, but the stegadon counters its lower stats in some form. The only thing that the Cygor has over the stegadon is the "Silly rule that makes Wizards miscast if they fail to cast a spell after failing a Ld test if they are within 24" at the start of the magic phase". And if you think about it its not really that great anyway, i mean not only do you have to be 24' away from a wizard but then they have to fail a LD test, if they do 1 of 2 things is going to happen, their not going to cast any magic or their going to roll lots of dice at a spell to make sure they don't fail casting.

so with all that the better unit is obviously the stegadon on many levels, so why should the beast player have to pay the same or more for something worse than the lizard player pays for a better unit. And that's only a raw comparison between the two, then you add what is available to the rest of the army and how they complement each other and the stegadon only gets better.

One thing that it seems to me about the beasts monsters are they don't seem to be particularly good at any one thing, they should each focus on one phase of the game and let the rest of the army deal with the other problems it faces. A single model shouldn't be the balancing point for the whole army.

On a side note things like why should a hydra have scaly skin and regen where as a giant has neither, i believe it to be purely fluff. When you think of the lore behind a hydra its basicly a walking dragon that when you cut one head off its replaced by 2 more, two things that represent its rules quite well. and then you think about a giant's lore you get a big scary dumb shit wearing a loin cloth ( last time i looked they were all out of giant sized armour at my local armoury:) ).


Just a quick question to anyone who has the new beast book, does the cygor always get to fire its stone thrower? Is there a misfire for the beast, i could see it being the best choice out of the 3 if its only has to worry about scattering... and if you could take several of them. The thought of stone throwers that have LOS to the entire filed that will never miss fire and cant be hunted down easily is great.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:07 pm

It can not march and shoot. It can move and shoot. If it misfires it suffers a single wound.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  nathanr on Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:54 pm

If I had a choice to take a cygor instead of a treeman in my wood elf army I think I would take it every now and then. One thing the Wood Elf army could really benefit from is some higher strength shooting and I think a stone-throwing monster would be a great addition.

Just an additional note: I often run a 300 point, 3 wound T3 character with no saves in my wood elf army and it almost always performs well. It almost always dies as well but not before it does its job. I think if it had T5 or 6 and 2 or 3 more wounds it would be outstanding and a heck of a lot more survivable as well.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:05 pm

Just an additional note: I often run a 300 point, 3 wound T3 character with no saves in my wood elf army and it almost always performs well. It almost always dies as well but not before it does its job. I think if it had T5 or 6 and 2 or 3 more wounds it would be outstanding and a heck of a lot more survivable as well.

Assuming you mean an Alter Highborn with Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, Netlings and Great Weapon, I would say that a M9 mansized model that can move through forests without penalty is a hell of a lot easier to keep safe from shooting and magic than a M7 Large Target.

Likewise being a character to deploy last on the flank of your choice is a pretty huge advantage that these monsters lack.

While your T3, 3W character is easier to kill, he's far harder for most armies to catch. He also hits harder in combat, and the Netlings make up for a lot of the toughness imbalance once he's there.

I would also rather have 5 BS6 30" range bow shots that ignore armour saves than a single regular stone thrower shot because the Bow/Bodkins is far more reliable.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  Carson on Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:39 pm

For me, when it come right down too it, I wonder why a person even bother to compare costs of units between books. Now, I completely agree with Scotts view on this so this may cloud my reasoning, but I never grab a book and compare it to another book. When I picked up the beastmen book for the first time and read it over I took it at as a stand alone book, not something that I needed to grasp by referencing another book.

Play an army, use a unit for what its listed at or don't. When I'm playing against Skaven I could care less what the cost is of something. I judge the army as a whole by what it can do. So far, none of us have seen the new beastmen in action. They will be able to compete quite we'll I believe.

Also, I don't get why everyone always rates O&G so bad. I wouldn't rate them any worse than any of the others *leaving out Deamons as nothing can really compete against a mixed deamon army*. The single book I feel that gets a raw deal right now are the Ogres.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  Lord_Stash on Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:21 pm

The overall weaknesses of an army should be taken into account, but in general comparing points values and effectiveness between units is how the system works. 500pts= 500pts, 1000, 2000, 3000...

You dont see cheaper infantry in non shooting armies than in shooting armies, to make up for the disadvantage. A Marauder is the same points as a swordsman.

All you can do is compare points costs and the statistics of the units effectiveness. Adding anything else into the equation brings in alot of ifs.

All a daemon prince does in any context, in any comparison, is stand around and simulate a steaming pile of shit.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  TheWade on Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:38 pm

I'm going to be honest, I didn't read half of the long winded posts in this topic because I'm actually excited to play Beasts again.

The more I read the book, the more excited I'm actually getting about playing it.

First off, I actually really like the Ghorgon. Maybe you remembered this in one of the posts, but when I stopped reading you hadn't mentioned the added benefit of the swallow whole ability. I think the ability to regain d3 wounds will be a good one and keep the Ghorgon alive long enough for it to do what it needs to.

There was a lot of chatter about point costs and how the point cost should reflect the value to the army. I am no expert, but I have the feeling the 275 point cost is meant to compensate for the sheer chaos a Beast army will bring to a game. A 6 man unit of Ungor raiders costs you 36 points. I plan on fielding something in the vicinity of 8 units, if the 1:1 interpretation of ambush is correct I'll be ambushing with 4...if it isn't 1:1 and it is actually 1:? then oh my watch out. I used to play a Khazrak ambushing army and I can't WAIT for my turn 1 ambushes. 4 units of Ungors showing up on turn one guns blazing. For 100 points each I can show up with 2 or 3 units of Ambushing Gors. Add to this my scouting harpies and scouting razorgor chariot. Seriously...if you have time to shoot at my Ghorgons go for it.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I really don't think the Rares are going to be proven to be that over costed in relation to the army as a whole if the army is played properly. I think playing Beastmen properly is going to involve overwhelming the opponent with combo charges from every direction. When taken individually the Beastmen units may seem poor, but when the army is used as a whole it's going to change a lot of minds. I think, also, that if some of the 8th edition rumors are true, not only will Beasts be fun to play, but also fully capable of winning games.

This army is going to be seriously fun to play, and I personally can't wait to give it a go.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  Carson on Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:52 pm

Couldn't agree more Wade!

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:03 pm

I think the ability to regain d3 wounds will be a good one and keep the Ghorgon alive long enough for it to do what it needs to.

On 1 attack at I1.
That has to roll to hit.
That has to roll a 4+ to wound.
That can only be used against US1 or 2 models.

They will be dead before combat anyways.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  TheWade on Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:23 pm

Fear not Eric, I'm not gonna argue with you.

I've read all your posts on TWF and here and I guess I'll just find out how well things work when I play the game.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  ScottRadom on Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:40 pm

Hey Eric! If I ever meet you, I am going to choke you! What did that dude say way back when? I remember it was funny as hell. He was gonna bang his hot wife for you too? Man, that guy was awesome!

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  squalie on Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:58 pm

That was George O' Connell, aka - "General of Chaos"

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:30 pm

TheWade wrote:Fear not Eric, I'm not gonna argue with you.

I've read all your posts on TWF and here and I guess I'll just find out how well things work when I play the game.
Yeah, I have nothing against actually playing the game. And I have nothing against playing the game with low tier armies.

Hell I have an Ogre army, Tomb Kings, Warriors of Chaos (largely infantry) and Skaven, so I'm hardly one to stop people from pushing crappy models around.

It's funny, but if someone were to just read my posts they would probably think that I am running the most wicked awesome tournament level ass kicking dominating tech, but I think I choose armies to challenge myself as much as my opponent...


I mean WTF, I am in the middle of trading Don for all of his Minotaurs, and I have been seriously considering taking out a loan to hire the Black Dragons (link) to build me some useless as shit Ghorgons.

I have no false impressions though - the last time that happened was Zombie Pirates (I did not think they were any good or even half bad, but I made the mistake of thinking they were playable even for fun...) - so I know I'm not building a killer army that's going to bend my opponents over and fill them with Beasty goodness.

I said Beastmen need:

Half a dozen units of dogs to help with redirecting/Frenzy control
Magic Defence
Something to deal with artillery
A couple decent hammers
Something to deal with Hydras/Bloodthirsters/HPAs
Some sort of psychology control and Panic/Fear/Terror mitigation

The army I am building is missing the first and second. No redirectors, poor magic defence. But if I start cutting the rest of the army to get those, I'm losing my hammers and won't have enough bits to deal with big monsters.

By the way, here's a great thread about GoC:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67899

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Oh man.... I can't believe I just read 5 pages of that stuff. That guy is awesome! Y'know what really bugs me? HOW does that thread go FIVE pages before getting locked down? Yikes!

Well, I'd say that's about enough outta him. Does he still post there?

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  squalie on Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:40 am

GoC, is still very active. You'll find him on the Herdstone and especially (of course) the Daemonic Legion. No kidding Scott, the guy is legendary (certainly in his own mind) and most of his threads turn into an ego rant. It's got to the point people just wait for him to post so they can pounce on him like a pack of Wolves. The strange thing....he actually loves it.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:44 am

He doesn't post much on Warhammer.org anymore after that last thread.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  Carson on Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:10 am

That was the guy that spazzed out on Eric? Oh man his threads crack me up....for a bit and then it just gets sad.

Eric for sure has chosen the right line of work though, he can passionately argue any point any time. Makes for some good warhammer debates on here.


..............man, just read that last forum topic linked by Eric. I feel dirty now.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  Lord_Stash on Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:11 am

ScottRadom wrote:Oh man.... I can't believe I just read 5 pages of that stuff. That guy is awesome! Y'know what really bugs me? HOW does that thread go FIVE pages before getting locked down? Yikes!

Well, I'd say that's about enough outta him. Does he still post there?

He can actually lose with Tzeentch daemonic legion??? wow! That takes some skill to do.

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  squalie on Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:24 pm

Well, I got a bottle of 21 year old Scotch for my birthday and went through the book again. I'm glad I did as I have mellowed quite a bit about the overall feel of the army. What went a long ways towards me feeling better was to make a couple of army lists up for craps and giggles. I've stayed out of this to-and-fro as I really want to give the army a chance and not make a rash decision about the army I owned for years and years. The army simply isn't going to be the same...they never are. I may just use them on the 20th and see how it feels.

Looking up boys! Eric, quit harshin' my new vibe! Mad Wink

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  Carson on Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:43 pm

Hey Happy 40th old man, mines on the 19th so I'll be joining the old geazers club too!

Don I think you just might really like this version of the beastmen.


Check out GW's website as they have some new pics of minotaurs that have been painted up by store staff........very cool!

I think I'd stab myself in the heart before I tried drinking Scotch again.......I have flashbacks of a me and a toilet bowl getting alittle too close!

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  squalie on Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:01 pm

I think I'd stab myself in the heart before I tried drinking Scotch again.......I have flashbacks of a me and a toilet bowl getting alittle too close!

Scotch is not meant to be drank like Rum! Not at $150.00 a bottle. It's a sipping drink, but it sounds like you didn't stop sipping!

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  Carson on Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:06 pm

Sipping is for you pansy city-folks.

Round these thar-hills, drinks is cheap and easy! Very Happy

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Re: New Beasts army book.

Post  squalie on Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:41 pm

Don't you worry, some night we'll get some Rum and drink like Hillbilly's!!

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Re: New Beasts army book.

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