New Skaven Rules

View previous topic View next topic Go down

New Skaven Rules

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:15 pm

So I've read through the stuff online, borrowed the preview copy from the den, looked over everything, know it inside and out now.

Honestly, there's some great things about the new Skaven book and some not so great things.

Great:
The Doomwheel is back. My favourite model (by concept rather than appearance) of all time is back with an even better looking version. I can't wait to be running around with 2 of the things. They're not chariots, so can't be killed by S7+ which makes their 5 T6 wounds much more substantial. They do D6+1 S6 impact hits, D3 S6 impact hits when they don't charge, and fire 3 blasts of lightning that automatically hit the nearest target (friend or foe) within 18" doing D6 wounds each. All that for 150 points? It moves like a chariot with 3d6 movement, so it can pivot an unlimited amount of times to get where it needs to go. Yeah, I'll take 2.

It's almost a shame I like Doomwheels so much, because the Hellpit Abomination looks to be a real beast. 6 T6 wounds with Regen, and when it dies, if you roll a 6 it comes back to life with D6 wounds. Combined with its ridiculous attack chart: 1-2 S6 hit on each model in base contact, doing D3 wounds with no armour save, 3-4 it gets 3d6 attacks that roll to hit and wound, 5-6 each model in base contact must make an I test or suffer a S6 hit, then one unit in combat takes 2d6 S6 hits distributed like shooting. Give the think Magic Resistance and magic attacks, and let it whomp Treemen. Unfortunately it moves like a spawn (choose a direction, it moves 3d6 in that direction without any pivots, or turns or anything), meaning a canny player can keep it trapped and out of the important fights. This, along with its ~250 point cost, make the Doomwheel seem the better choice in my opinion. That said, I am sure there will be whining about the Abomination being the new Hydra, and probably more than a couple Skaven players that max out on these guys.

The new Spell Lores are pretty darn good. There are two of them, one for Engineers, one for Plague Priests, and Grey Seers and Vermin Lords can take from either/both in any combination. Both lores are very destructive, but many spells can backfire. Warp Lightning can fry your mages, Plague can kill your entire army with some bad rolls. Death Frenzy is murder on elite units. Moderate casting costs with all spells, nothing ridiculously powerful. That said, the 13th spell (which only Grey Seers and Vermin Lords can substitute for) requires a 25+ to cast. It can only be cast on visible infantry within 24". The caster rolls 4d6. If this total is greater than the total number of models in the unit the entire thing is removed (characters and all) and replaced with Clanrats. If the unit has more models than the total rolled, the unit suffers that many CASUALTIES. Take that Ogres and Minotaurs! Scorch is interesting because it is a template spell that doesn't require a target. Just place the template within 24" after it is cast, making units in combat perfect targets, and it benefits from the next point...

All templates in the book no longer have any 4+ for partials. Skaven are playing 40k now because any model TOUCHED by any template at all is automatically hit with full effect. Warpfire Throwers are godly now. Scorch will castrate whole units. The Plague Catapult thing that uses the large template at S2 with no armour save will be devastating.

The special characters are moderately interesting, but most seem overpriced. Definitely nothing over the top or unbalanced here. Snikch is a hero but 270 points... Nice to see him in the book, but for S4 attacks and 2W, that's a hefty price...

Pretty much everything that fights has gotten cheaper and fightier. Clanrats, Stormvermin, Plague Monks are all cheaper, Rat Ogres, Giant Rats, Plague Censer Bearers all fight harder (and are cheaper). Unfortunately just about everything that shoots has gotten worse.

The Screaming Bell and the Plague Furnace make their units unbreakable and provide some very useful abilities. That said, they are very expensive and will drastically cut down on the number of rats on the table. Could be an interesting way of dealing with the typical Skaven unreliability. They aren't THAT hard to kill, so I don't know how reliable a strategy taking a bunch of these would be...

Not Great:
Everything that shoots has gotten worse. Ratling Guns roll to hit now, so even with their decreased cost of 55 points, they're a waste. Jezzails no longer Skirmish, so they're pretty much bunk. Globadiers have moved from core to Special - what a waste of a slot. The Warp Lightning Cannon fires like a regular cannon with a template on the end. I suppose it could be more useful now in some circumstances, but with the number of artillery dice you have to roll to resolve the thing, it's simply too unreliable now. Warpfire Throwers are the one exception to this, for the template reasons mentioned above.

The magic items suck bad. There are no good arcane items, no good bound items, no decent magic armours, no 4+ ward, no regeneration item, no useful magic weapons. The Fellblade is 100 points now instead of 85 - you can't even take the Talisman of Protection with it anymore. The Weeping Blade is armour piercing and D3 wounds instead of +1S and D3 wounds. Storm Daemon is gone, along with Bands of Power. Warpstone Tokens are 15 points now instead of 10. Who the hell would take a Warpstone Token for 15 points when a Power Stone is 20 points, provides 2 dice instead of 1 and doesn't wound you if they come up 1??? The magic items are sooo bad, there's absolutely no point in taking a Warlord. Without any sort of useful weaponry, armour, ward save or regeneration, there are unit champions that can beat down a fully kitted Skaven Warlord. Grey Seers also have Ld7 now, so there really is no point in trying to take a fighty lord. Worst magic item selection ever. Just shamefully bad. Horrible. Hell, there is a 30 point magic standard that does NOTHING if you have less ranks than your opponent. If you have more ranks, then you roll a D6: 1-2 IT STILL DOES NOTHING, 3-4 it provides +1CR, JUST LIKE THE 25 POINT WARBANNER, 5-6 it provides +2 CR. What the hell were they thinking?

Assassins are still character choices. Dark Elves get theirs as Core units, so why the hell should Skaven get a weaker, watered down version for more points and a hero slot? Very disappointing.

The Vermin Lord can't be the army's general. For 500 points, and stats slightly lower than all the other Greater Daemons, it's really sad we won't ever see this guy in a 2000 point game because he can't be the general. Skaven need their leadership, so forcing you to have a Ld6 hero as your general is pretty poor. His points cost and abilities aren't out of whack, so there wasn't a need for this. He might be fun in bigger games I guess...

Night Runners don't skirmish anymore. Skaven don't need another ranked unit with no armour save thank you very much. This is doubly true when they cost 7 points a model. I guess I will start calling mine slaves now.

Poison on Gutter Runners costs 5 points a model. Seriously, WTF? Second stupidest upgrade in the game, only ranked just behind lances for Chaos Knights.

All in all, it's a decent book. I think it will be fun and interesting and certainly won't be overturning the Tournament tables anytime soon. If I were to rank its pure OMG POWER, I would probably put it midway between Empire and Warriors of Chaos. It has the tools to do damage, but Skaven will really suffer from unreliability, almost as badly as Orcs and Goblins now. A single dice roll will win or lose MANY a Skaven game. This means they won't really be able to seriously compete against Dark Elves, Vampires, Daemons or even Lizardmen, who all benefit from how reliable their armies are. The big boys will still have a fair chance against the Skaven A game, and if the Skaven bring their B game, then the rats will get stomped on.

RickyDMMontoya

Posts : 1124
Join date : 2008-05-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:49 pm

Sounds like I wasn't alone in hating all the things that got nerfed. Jezzails, warp lighting, ratling guns, all that really, really bothered me before. Badly. I am glad they got brought down.

Shame abotu magic items but I alos hated the storm demon thingy. Sounds to me like GW felt the pressure to bring back the Vermin Lord, but decided to keep it pretty ugly for the Skaven.

That 25+ spell is wierd. I like it on paper, but I would probably shit a baby if it was cast against me succesfully.

Do they still have that stupid 13 for irresistible force? hated that rule, thought it was bad for the skaven PLUS players always seemed to forget it.

Is that special character from the lustria book in the game? The plague rat fat guy. Can't remember his name. I always liked painting plague monks. Maybe I'll finish off a 1200 point clan pestilens force. I have 30ish painted so far.

Sounds like GW is back into making better books. They went on a shit streak there for a bit. Cool post Eric.

ScottRadom

Posts : 2156
Join date : 2008-04-18
Age : 40
Location : Saskatoon, SK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:41 am

The Curse of the Horned Rat (the 13th spell) is pretty awesome I think. Skaven lost the Irresistible Force on 13, so they need double 6's like everyone else now. Trying to cast the spell on its own will take 8 dice to have ~48% chance of casting it, 30% of the time irresistibly. Of course that also fails 52% of the time, mostly being miscasts... It will be really awesome for when your enemy gets a Miscast result of 5-6 and should never be chosen against Tzeentch Daemons... Facing Glean Magic with Curse would be suicidal. "Oh, looks like I get to automatically cast that spell for free."

Nurglitch isn't in the book, but Skrolk lets you take Plague Monks as core. He's really expensive though, and his only protection is his T5. If you like the model, Pox Rats can be taken as mounts for Plague Priests.

Pestilens is an awesome choice, mainly because of how sweet Censer Bearers are now. Censer Bearers have 2 attacks base, plus Frenzy, plus Hatred, plus the censer fumes, plus they're only 16 points now, plus they are special choices, plus they can come in gigantic units. Plague Furnaces, in addition to making the Plague Monks they are in Unbreakable, also make Censer Bearers within 12" Stubborn. Considering that Censer Bearers get to use the Rank Bonus of the Plague Monks for their leadership bonus, and you have a really solid line.

The Furnaces themselves do D6 impact hits when they charge, and at the start of each combat phase do d6 automatic hits to the enemy (as well as D6 to the unit pushing it) that requires a T test or a wound with no armour save. In the Skaven combat phase, the Plague Furnace also does an artillery dice of S6 hits to the enemy. With big enough units these bad boys should be able to grind just about anything down.

RickyDMMontoya

Posts : 1124
Join date : 2008-05-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:47 am

Oh yeah, there is one magic item that has the internet shitting bricks right now, and that's the Storm Banner. The old one was one use only, made BS weapons -2 to hit, prevented flying and artillery only went off on a 4+. It lasted until someone rolled a 5+ at the start of their turn.

The new one makes BS weapons -2 to hit, prevents flying and artillery only goes off on a 4+. It lasts until someone rolls a 4+ at the start of their turn.

Not one use only.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that it's only 50 points now so Stormvermin or Plague Monks can take it. No need to put it on the BSB.

RickyDMMontoya

Posts : 1124
Join date : 2008-05-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:06 am

Hmmm.... I don't really like the plague furnace model that much. It's just the new way of having a stiff breeze blowing from the back of the army look that started with VC just doesn't do it for me. But maybe. I do like the Nurglitch model a bunch. I might give this some thought as I am close enough to a start.

The making plague monks core guy, is he a lord? I think only about the 1200 point idear I was thinking of.

ScottRadom

Posts : 2156
Join date : 2008-04-18
Age : 40
Location : Saskatoon, SK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:54 am

Yeah he is a Lord. They're stuck in Special without him.

And the Plague Furnace isn't so bad with its smoke, as the big Censer ball is swinging, so the smoke is trailing behind it.

RickyDMMontoya

Posts : 1124
Join date : 2008-05-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  Carson on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:01 am

hey great post Eric.....I've been waiting for news Very Happy

I really want to make a skaven army, have promised myself not too until I finish up my WOC.........yeah right.

Carson
Admin

Posts : 2782
Join date : 2008-04-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  nathanr on Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:39 pm

Yah, thanks for the summary Eric. Are rat ogres still as useless as they were before?

nathanr

Posts : 4383
Join date : 2008-06-10
Age : 35
Location : Saskatoon

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:48 pm

No. They were useless before because their low leadership and bizarre unit composition meant that if one packmaster died, they would panic and run away.
They are now Frenzied, so Panic is no longer an issue. The +1 A certainly helps too. They are also a tiny bit cheaper, which helps.

RickyDMMontoya

Posts : 1124
Join date : 2008-05-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  nathanr on Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:11 pm

Good to hear, I always liked rat-ogres but nobody ever took them because they sucked so much.

nathanr

Posts : 4383
Join date : 2008-06-10
Age : 35
Location : Saskatoon

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  Carson on Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:55 pm

We'll I finally had a read through the new Skaven book and it gets thumbs up for me. I like it alot, and I actually quite like the list of magic items. I know that most players I've seen have gone the grey seer route but I really think the warlord is a great option now with his available mounts. He might be a bit squishy but isn't that in the character of the army. Really, even lord level rats should not be uber tough killers.

Warlord on rat-ogre mount in a big block of storm vermin sounds awesome to me. Have to field the plague furnace as well. Too cool not to.

Carson
Admin

Posts : 2782
Join date : 2008-04-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  GobbladasSquig on Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:14 pm

I guess the problem with the warlord on rat-ogre is that it can be singled out by shooting due to US 5. He does pump out a decent amount of strength 5 attacks, though.

I also hear that the thirteenth spell can be cast on greater daemons, since they are specifically ruled as not being monsters. That makes them infantry and a viable target for the spell. Just cast it successfully and that Bloodthirster automatically turns into a clanrat. affraid

A lot of strange, strange stuff in the book. Again one of those GW books that desperately needs a FAQ like a week after being published...

GobbladasSquig

Posts : 86
Join date : 2009-10-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:55 pm

GobbladasSquig wrote:Just cast it successfully and that Bloodthirster automatically turns into a clanrat. affraid

Yeah. "Just." Wink

And anyways, it doesn't work that way. The greater Daemons are still monsters, it says so right in their book. They just aren't affected by things that affect monsters... because they're also characters.

The FAQ is stupid, but they are definitively still monsters. They're just characters too, and for some reason don't count as being monsters for a lot of things... Sad

It would be like if you had a character on a horse. He is a character, but is also cavalry. The only difference is that GW hasn't ruled that a character on a horse is immune to things that affect cavalry because they are also characters... yet.

You know what would be really cool? If GW made Greater Daemons immune to things that affect characters because they are monsters. And then made them immune to things that affect units, because they are single models. And then made them immune to things that affect single models because they are units.

They haven't grasped the capability of overlap of properties yet...

RickyDMMontoya

Posts : 1124
Join date : 2008-05-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  Carson on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:37 pm

I've given up reading FAQ's. I just play out of the book and when someone corrects me then I know. Lazy I know but I'm sick of reading updates that end up causing more questions than answers.

A good thing that I subscribe to is the idea of "spirit of the rules" not what the exact wording says. Makes for funner and more friendly games.

Carson
Admin

Posts : 2782
Join date : 2008-04-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  squalie on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:13 pm

A good thing that I subscribe to is the idea of "spirit of the rules" not what the exact wording says. Makes for funner and more friendly games.

Words to live by.

squalie

Posts : 3502
Join date : 2008-06-05
Location : Moose Jaw

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  GobbladasSquig on Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:11 am

RickyDMMontoya wrote:
Just cast it successfully and that Bloodthirster automatically turns into a clanrat. affraid
Yeah. "Just." Wink
Well, yeah. Very Happy In a tournament I held we had a skaven player with a greyseer equipped with some power stones. Randomly jumping from table to table, just as a good tournament organizer ought to, I remember seeing at least 3 successful casts of the spell. Twice it got scrolled and once it got through on a chaos dwarf warrior unit with a great sorcerer in it. It destroyed the unit to like two survivors and routed them. It's not that difficult to cast providing you've got a power stone. Sure the miscast probability gets quite high but isn't everything with Skaven more or less a gamble.

And anyways, it doesn't work that way. The greater Daemons are still monsters, it says so right in their book. They just aren't affected by things that affect monsters... because they're also characters.

The FAQ is stupid, but they are definitively still monsters. They're just characters too, and for some reason don't count as being monsters for a lot of things... Sad
It does sound stupid, but the FAQ says "No, they are characters and not monsters, even though they share some rules with monsters (normally this is limited to the way they move, their inability to join units and their unit strength)." So they are single characters on foot and not monsters for the purposes of every spell in the game. Should a bloodthirster ride a horse, though... Laughing

No, but seriously speaking, trying to play the game by GW's exact wordings just doesn't work and I agree with Carson that it is paramount to have a good game and to solve these questions with your opponent in a sensible way. The reason why I try to keep up with these debates is to be able to give some rulings if someone asks me. Often I just have to say "Roll a 4+", which is sometimes pretty dull when it happens in a decisive point of a game.

Back to skaven. Apart from sloppy rules-writing, I too like the feel of the book. The new miniatures and all the new gadgets they got seem like great fun. GW did a pretty good job nerfing the old Skaven Army of Doom builds while still keeping the army interesting and playable as a whole. Moreover, I really can't see a single unit or character being useless or obsolete. Even the not skirmishing night runners got a cool free move. The lists you see now in Finland are all Plague Furnace + Screaming Bell + Doomwheel + Abomination + PCB spam, but I believe that in some time we'll start seeing a lot more different builds. Balanced ones, I think.

GobbladasSquig

Posts : 86
Join date : 2009-10-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: New Skaven Rules

Post  Sponsored content Today at 3:23 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum