Round 4 masters......Dec

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  nathanr on Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:00 am

Number 4 does't have to exclude High Elves. Other than that, it looks good. My wood elf army as it is gets 5/10. I'll try to improve on this though!

A tier system like Eric is talking about would be ideal in a situation where there were going to be a lot of unknown players and power-gamers but for a local tournament where everyone knows everyone I don't think it is as much of an issue. I have no trouble telling any of you that you are an ass for bringing a cheesy list and I hope you will do the same for me! I suppose Eric does have more on the line with this tourney since he is in the running to win the masters series and I'm not but I think this comp. system should be alright to make it a level playing field.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Ironwoulf on Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:11 am

I like the comp system, quick and simple. Now i can work up an army that will score zero comp points but massacre every game (will need to spend a few bucks to get the sportsmanship scores up) and take the Prize.

I will be working on scenario's this weekend. Feel free to send me ideas.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  GobbladasSquig on Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:51 am

Mm, discussion... Very Happy Should we have a separate comp thread as to avoid completely derailing this one?

RickyDMMontoya wrote:I really don't think these ideas are very good at all. They don't accomplish anything worthwhile. Outright bans or restrictions are the big dumb hammer of composition rules, the ETC rules are no exception.
I understand your point, but my personal opinion, based on quite a few years of taking part in different tournaments, is that banning everything min-maxed does good for the game. I've been to a local no-comp tournament here in Finland and it wasn't pretty. Three Teclis + 4 RBT, one shade deathstar, one VC black knight deathstar, one Kholek + maxed knights and mara horses, one Gateway + maxed knights and marahorses, one fully pumped slann + 3 engines ... The game degenerates into rock-paper-scissors, where the only thing that counts is which opponent you draw. It's not fun for the people who take these über-lists and it's not fun for people who want to use whatever units they like and have, regardless if they happen to be cost-effective or not. I've also been to quite a few of ETC-comped tournaments, where the game is much much more tactic oriented because the lists are more balanced and where, IMO, it requires a lot more from the player to finish high. But that's just my personal observation of how things are in Finland.

RickyDMMontoya wrote:The assumption that all infantry is balanced is flawed, and in my opinion totally unsupportable. By making this statement, you have made it clear that you are not interested in balance as a first priority, but rather forcing your players to play a modified game based only on your whim and preferences. Who said there should be more infantry? Who said there should be less Stegadons? More infantry does not equal balance. Less Stegadons does not equal balance.
I don't think that all infantry is balanced. Black guard are a lot better than greatswords. Nor do I want to see a tournament full of only infantry, that would totally ruin what's great about the game (ie. variety). What I meant is that the game's rules work the best and best balance is achieved with infantry oriented armies. What I mean to say, is that infantry doesn't abuse the game. This goes more or less hand in hand with composition that rewards core-heavy armies (but not entirely, and generally only rewarding core is IMO bad). Also, every army has access to decent infantry units, where as not every army has decent magic, decent shooting, decent monsters and so on.

Less stegadons might not equal balance, but keep adding stegadons and at some point you will cross the line and balance is lost.


RickyDMMontoya wrote:Just read your intro and I see you are from Finland. I guess that explains your adherence to the ETC. I was wondering why the hell someone in Canada would play with those castrated Warhammer rules. I am going to fight against it as hard as I can here.
Some people call them castrated armies, others call them balanced. Wink And make no mistake, I'm not on a crusade to plant ETC composition into Saskatoon, far from it. I'm just sharing ideas here and for that to work you guys need to know the environment in which I play and I need to know the environment in which you play.

Regarding other types of composition: Trying to limit min-maxing with just scenarios (ie. one scenario where shooting doesn't work and so on), doesn't work. The shooting min-maxer will just win the other games with massacres and try to points-denial some tournament points from the nerf scenario. Usually four big wins in a five game tournament places you, at least, in the top 3. Using a tier-system and only pairing strong lists in the first round doesn't work either. A player who min-maxes his list knows that he is going to face the other three-four toughest armies in the tournament anyways, why would he change anything if he knew that he'll face one of the tough lists in the first round? If a high tier means also losing a lot of points compared to a low one, it would probably work.

The problem with judges deciding the softness of your list, is that firstly it is a lot of work. A lot. In our tournaments we've required people to send their lists before the tournament to us so that we can check if they are legal. And even with just 20-something lists, and only checking points costs and so on, sending the lists back and re-checking them, it's hours and hours of work. Now, if you would then also rate them into, say, three categories, send them back with a written note about why it was ranked how it was, get a new list, re-check it, send another note ... It might easily be hundreds of hours of work, and weeks in terms of total length of the task, depending on the amount of players. Imagine a 60-player tournament... That would be the perfect comp, I agree, but it's an infinitely heavy thing to organize.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:19 pm

I'm just going to repeat what I've said before, do WE here in Saskatoon NEED comp rules? I've missed a couple of tournies but I haven't seen pr heard of anyone showing up with some abysmal list and sticking it in the rear of the tourny for a long, long time. I've also not seen a player treat his opponents list unfairly in rating it for a while now either. But I haven't run one in a bit either.

I think comp has become one of those problems that just don't exist anymore here. We know the armies we want to play with and against and those are the ones we see.

Eric, the system you outline is great, but no way in hell are we gonna find a person let alone a panel to put it into place. Too much work for what might be a 12-20 man tourny.

Our prizes aren't massive army boxes, and we spread the love around with our prizes too so the incentive isn't really there. I don't think anyway.

I don't really like banning things from lists. Reason being I think some of the units and items that are retarded can sort of be balanced by themeing them in (Or softing up your army, whatever made up term you like more). That dumb ass gem thingy the DE have pisses me off, but less so if it isn't accompanied by two hydras and a super unit of ASF elite infantry with a beastmaster.

I like the line someone has in a post that the players army shouldn't be a suprise to his opponent when he hears the race you're playing. At least, not an unpleasant suprise.

I still think warhammer needs comp to be fun, if only to show players what a good example of fun armies really are. I just don't know that it really applies here. How many of us hung up our demon armies because they were too powerful? Mine actually sort of sucked but it was just dumb.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:31 pm

I'd rate lists for the tourney.

And, no, we don't need comp in Saskatoon. Even those buggers from Calgary don't mess with our system too badly when they come Wink. Hell, even the 3000 point "BRING IT ON" tournament was pretty damn soft, even with the couple of Kholek's that were floating around.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  GobbladasSquig on Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:26 am

I think Carson's list will do fine. Even if no-comp works well in Saskatoon (peer pressure, I guess?), it's fun for players to see how their lists compare with others. That was more or less the idea, wasn't it Carson?

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:00 am

GobbladasSquig wrote:I think Carson's list will do fine. Even if no-comp works well in Saskatoon (peer pressure, I guess?), it's fun for players to see how their lists compare with others. That was more or less the idea, wasn't it Carson?
Agree, it is fun to compare. I like the idea of a comp system especially when mixing ggroups of players for the first time. It gives a set of expectations to everyone and lets people sort of make up their mind on what they want to bring, or if they want to come.

But here really it's just one big group, so we all do in fact have the peer pressure kind of thing going. If one dude shows up with a list geared solely to win and not take into account the fun of his opponent, their going to hear about it.

If players are willing, we can always post our lists here either before or after and sort of compare how the tourny would have gone down differently with each comp system?

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:46 am

Yeah that about has it. The comp for this tournament is not about bringing army lists into line but to give the players a pretty good idea what the armies they will face will consist of.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  nathanr on Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:47 pm

Are you going to be asking for army lists in advance? It would be nice to see what the composition scores are (or the average score) beforehand so that we know what to expect.

Also, if the average was 7/10 and I had a 5/10 army I'd try extra hard to re-work the army and get 2 more points so it would be nice to have the opportunity to re-submit. You could always put a VP penalty in place for late or re-submitted lists.

Edit: what is the word on special characters? In particular, how should we count their magic items with respect to question 7?

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:25 am

Carson, about those "except for High Elves" bits on the comp rules. Do they automatically pass those or automatically fail them?

Seems a little weird either way.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Kendric on Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:55 pm

RickyDMMontoya wrote:Carson, about those "except for High Elves" bits on the comp rules. Do they automatically pass those or automatically fail them?

Seems a little weird either way.

I think that Carson means that HE automatically pass points 4 and 5 although I dont see why HE should get a pass from point 4. It would be pretty retarded though if HE didnt get a pass for point 5 unless you want me to take 5 units of spearmen and 5 units of archers. (only other core I get is sea guard which are spearmen with bows, but are over priced)

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  nathanr on Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:16 pm

Do you have a date picked for this Carson? December is looking pretty full for me so unless it is on the weekend of the 19/20th I'm not going to be able to make it and even then its iffy.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:14 pm

Actually I confirmed with Darren this morning for Sunday Dec.20. 9am start

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:29 pm

ok so I'm sure everyone is aware of the new date for this upcoming tournament. As promised here are the 4 scenarios that will be played during the day.

In addition to the normal tournament scoring there will be 2 "masters points" that can be earned each round.

Before the first game each player will be handed 4 cards with a secret objective on it. Before each round the player will choose an objective card to play. The card will be revealed to each opponent at the end of each game for confirmation. If a player accomplishes his secret objective during the game he will be rewarded the 2 "masters points". An example of an objective would be.........kill the enemy general.

Big thanks to Bob for helping with these scenarios.

In no particular order.

1. Capture

Diagonal deployment. After deployment I will place 5 objectives worth a hidden vp amount. 250, 250, 100, 100, and a 0. Each player may then examine secretly one objectives points value.
Only units with a banner may capture and then carry the objective with them. Units that carry an objective will drop it if they fail a panic, terror, or break test.

2. Table Quarter

only table quarters count for victory. Table quarters can only be captured by a unit with a banner. all 4 quarters...massacre, 2more...solid, 1more...minor, equal...tie.

3. Magic can kill you in the end!

Many warnings of the deceptive nature of magic have been given...beware those who don't listen.
No total power in the game. dice rolls of 1d6 used for a spell will result in a miscast on the roll of a 1.

4. Field of misery

Two armies hardend by war meet to determine the final victor. reroll all pychology and rally tests.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Kuyp on Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:22 pm

The scenarios look good, but in the third one what does "no total power" mean.... also will a unit be able to caputure multiple objectives in the first scenario?

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  JoeMisfeldt on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:31 pm

For scenarios 1 and 2 does a unit without a banner joined by a battle standard bearer count for capturing?

And for scenario 3 is it only on single die castings? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  nathanr on Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:31 pm

I like the scenarios and I think they will work well. None of them are particuarly discriminatory or overpowering. My regular wood elf army would struggle with the first two because I only have one unit with a standard but that is by choice and I could easily fix that by adding a few units of glade riders with standards and giving my glade guard units standards. If the scenarios had been secret I would have been a bit ticked off when I showed up with my one banner and found out that I was going to lose the first two games but by letting everyone know in advance you've avoided any of that. Of course I can't make it anymore so it doesn't really matter what I think!

@Joe and Dominique: I think scenario 3 is saying that double 6's to cast won't result in irresistable force. You can still miscast on double 1's but it also adds the possibility of a miscast to spells cast with a single power dice. If you roll a 1 when casting with 1 dice you will miscast. I like this scenario way more than the usual magic flux scenarios. It isn't game breaking but it still shifts the way the game plays out by making players a bit more aware of the possible consequences of casting spells.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:00 pm

yes to everything nathan said except the not coming part!

a bsb is a standard for sure moefoe

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  nathanr on Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:07 pm

Yah I know, I figured since I told my wife more than a month in advance that I'd be good. Unfortunately she informed me that I have other plans. I'll see if I can wrangle something but it doesn't look good.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  GeoffKlassen on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:10 pm

Tell your wife you are calling in sick that day :-).

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  TheWade on Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:01 pm

Hey, I wasn't sure or not but do I need to send in my list at some point? If so to where?

And I just now finally read the whole thread...seeing as I'm the only person from Calgary who still comes out I resent being called a "bugger". Wink

In fact, I think the only prize that should be handed out is the "Furthest distance travelled to play with a bunch of buggers from Saskatoon prize."

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  squalie on Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:55 pm

1-Did you spend at least 700pts on core units
2-Did you spend 900 or more pts on core units
3-Did you fill more than your minimum core slots
4-Other than Highelves, did you refrain from filling your special or rare slots
5-Other than Highelves, do your core units outnumber your special and rare slots combined
6-did you spend 700 or less points on characters. note....this includes magic items, marks, daemonic gifts, vampire bloodlines, etc.
7- did you spend no more than 200pts on magic items
8-excluding artillery, do you have 2 or less units of missle armed troops.
9-does your army generate 8 or less powerdice. note.....that each bound item, prayer, tombking incantation counts as 1 powerdice for this calculation.
10- does your army have only 1 unit or less with the flying special rule.

Do Furies, which are a core unit but don't count towards the minimum requirement, count towards #3?

I think my army is a 4 or 5 depending on the answer to my question.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Lord_Stash on Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:26 pm

squalie wrote:
1-Did you spend at least 700pts on core units
2-Did you spend 900 or more pts on core units
3-Did you fill more than your minimum core slots
4-Other than Highelves, did you refrain from filling your special or rare slots
5-Other than Highelves, do your core units outnumber your special and rare slots combined
6-did you spend 700 or less points on characters. note....this includes magic items, marks, daemonic gifts, vampire bloodlines, etc.
7- did you spend no more than 200pts on magic items
8-excluding artillery, do you have 2 or less units of missle armed troops.
9-does your army generate 8 or less powerdice. note.....that each bound item, prayer, tombking incantation counts as 1 powerdice for this calculation.
10- does your army have only 1 unit or less with the flying special rule.

Do Furies, which are a core unit but don't count towards the minimum requirement, count towards #3?

I think my army is a 4 or 5 depending on the answer to my question.

Sure. They count as a choice, but just cant fill the minimum core choices needed per army.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Ddodge on Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:28 pm

I dont think they apply. They are like my empire detachments which dont count for min core. However, I was then counting them as units for the number of missile units. So I get a 2 lower score because of my detachments. study makes me want to read.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  ScottRadom on Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:31 pm

Lord_Stash wrote:
squalie wrote:
1-Did you spend at least 700pts on core units
2-Did you spend 900 or more pts on core units
3-Did you fill more than your minimum core slots
4-Other than Highelves, did you refrain from filling your special or rare slots
5-Other than Highelves, do your core units outnumber your special and rare slots combined
6-did you spend 700 or less points on characters. note....this includes magic items, marks, daemonic gifts, vampire bloodlines, etc.
7- did you spend no more than 200pts on magic items
8-excluding artillery, do you have 2 or less units of missle armed troops.
9-does your army generate 8 or less powerdice. note.....that each bound item, prayer, tombking incantation counts as 1 powerdice for this calculation.
10- does your army have only 1 unit or less with the flying special rule.

Do Furies, which are a core unit but don't count towards the minimum requirement, count towards #3?

I think my army is a 4 or 5 depending on the answer to my question.

Sure. They count as a choice, but just cant fill the minimum core choices needed per army.

I doubt they would count. if you only have 3 core plus some non min eligible core choices I think you're probably hooped. Good thing Carson is here, he can answer all!

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

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