Round 4 masters......Dec

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Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:55 pm

So I thought I'd get this thread started.

This Dec. will feature an RTT style tournament. It will be the fianl round of the masters series. Up for grabs are the normal tournament prizes plus the Battalion box and kick-ass trophy for the masters winner.

The tournament will include: full comp, painting, sportsmanship, battlepoints, and quiz.
2200pts
4 rounds
the various scenarios will allow players to earns "masters series" points for completing secret objectives.
20$ entry
other general awesomness

The problem I have right now is coming up with an updated comp. system to balance out the later army books. All suggestions are welcome.

Date Sunday Dec.20 9am start


Last edited by Carson on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Mhael on Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:59 pm

what is an rtt style tourny?

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  nathanr on Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:08 am

Comp is always a tough one. I'd say that balance is the key to a good composition system. In my opinion you should have questions like "Do you have more than 5, 10, 15 power dice?", or "Do you have more than 10, 20, 30 missile-armed models?", or "2, 3, 4 war machines", "2, 3, 4 monsters" etc. The last one is a tough one since the definition of monster is pretty broad.

High elves have destroyed the core, special, rare ratios but I suppose you could just change the wording to something like "do you have more than the minimum number of core" or "are you taking the maximum allowable special, rare, characters etc."

I know that people are going to disagree with my suggestions (just as I will probably disagree with other suggestions) but I think you just need to come up with something and put your foot down Carson.

As for whether or not I can make it, I guess it will depend on the day. I would hate to miss it though.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  GobbladasSquig on Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:36 am

What's the composition you've been using previously? Have you been completely banning stuff or rewarding people that bring soft lists with extra points? Also, does "later army books" include lizardmen and dark elves or also vampires and daemons?

I've been organizing a bunch of comped tournaments for a couple of years now, and would gladly share ideas. Smile

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Ironwoulf on Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:09 am

nathanr wrote:Comp is always a tough one. I'd say that balance is the key to a good composition system. In my opinion you should have questions like "Do you have more than 5, 10, 15 power dice?", or "Do you have more than 10, 20, 30 missile-armed models?", or "2, 3, 4 war machines", "2, 3, 4 monsters" etc. The last one is a tough one since the definition of monster is pretty broad.

High elves have destroyed the core, special, rare ratios but I suppose you could just change the wording to something like "do you have more than the minimum number of core" or "are you taking the maximum allowable special, rare, characters etc."

I know that people are going to disagree with my suggestions (just as I will probably disagree with other suggestions) but I think you just need to come up with something and put your foot down Carson.

As for whether or not I can make it, I guess it will depend on the day. I would hate to miss it though.


I would like to see a system that does not penalize those features of an army that gives it it's character, Handguns and cannon for Empire, magic for High Elves, etc. Every army is different and everyone has an army they hate to play against, do we peanlize undead and demons beacause all the units cause fear when none of my gobbo's do?

Give extra points for having more than minimun core units, penalize if maxed out on special, rare and characters. Bonus marks if core points are greater than special and rare points. After scoring army based on hard and fast criteria have opponnet give a general comp score.

In the end, are we here for a fun time or do we need to beat the crap out of every chump we play by any means possible because if we don't win all the time we don't get our rocks off and hate the world and everyone in it

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  ScottRadom on Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:22 pm

Yes Gobbladasquig, share the comp rules if they worked!

I've given up on comp. Any system governed by math seems to have so many armies that can skirt around it. Any player voted system tends to abuse winning armies even if they're a full on "soft" army with massed infantry, no magic etc.

In the end I think that so long as we have a judge we trust I think a system with rough guidelines voted on by players, and the tournie organizer split 50/50 might be the way to go.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:07 pm

Comp should and still does work as long as the guidelines are we'll known before the tourney, then every player makes his choices and lives with them. I'm going to try and draw some up that fit into what Rob was saying.

We havn't used a formal comp system in Saskatoon for quite some time as the players here are good chaps and don't tend to powergame.....except for Stash Very Happy

Since this will be the final round of the masters I want to run a full on comp tourney to level the playing field and give players an idea of what armies they can expect to face.

Units or combinations are never banned......you just live with the comp score you recieve and will know of before hand.

I really feel that the comp I used to run back in 6th edition was pretty much optimised but some definiate changes will have to be made to fit into the current game system.

High Elves for example definately do not break a comp system but some allowance should be made for thier army build rules.

stay tuned.............

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Mhael on Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:26 pm

It would defintly be nice to know what the comp rules will be before the tournament and I like the idea of having specific guidelines determining this. I also like having a rewards points for using more core choices instead of penalizing players for taking the combinations that make their army work.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  GobbladasSquig on Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:59 pm

We've been using a modified ETC composition set*, which means outright banning a number of things. That is a bit rough, and we have indeed found that players that want to abuse their armies find ways to do that no matter what restrictions you give them. Still, my opinion is that some sort of a list of restrictions is necessary to balance the army books and make for a fun environment for everyone (in Finland, at least). If that is achieved by no restrictions at all, or by simply encouraging players to be nice to each other when building lists, that's great. Smile

Another way of balancing armies are scenarios, which we have had great success with. Putting an emphasis on scenarios with objectives you need to control and then giving infantry units additional perks for contesting them seems to make a lot of armies difficult to restrict with composition renew themselves. My personal favorite is a scenario where you have a building in the middle of the board. Controlling the building gives 500 victory points, and it must be controlled with a unit that has a banner in it. It sounds really simple, but it is great fun and works too.


*European team championships, comp here. For the next tournament, we also comped large targets to a max of 1 and also gave a bunch of army specific restrictions.

'Squiggedit: Bugman's doesn't seem to be working right now, so the link is broken for the time being...

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:47 pm

Ive heard of the ETC before but wasn't exactly sure of the comp system used. The idea of limiting to 1 large target is interesting, not sure off the top of my head if it hinders any armies more so than others?

Scenarios are something we have always had, but quality scenarios are something were still looking for!

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  nathanr on Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:22 pm

I wouldn't be able to take 2 treemen, but I wasn't planning on doing that anyway! The hydra isn't a large target is it?

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Ironwoulf on Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:46 pm

Carson wrote:Ive heard of the ETC before but wasn't exactly sure of the comp system used. The idea of limiting to 1 large target is interesting, not sure off the top of my head if it hinders any armies more so than others?

Scenarios are something we have always had, but quality scenarios are something were still looking for!

If limits are put on what one can take from an army book i suggest limiting to 1 large target, 1 character, 1 war machine , and max of 2 power dice, and to keep things fair for the non fear and terror based armies only core units with F and T can be taken, as well only 1 flying unit as those armies without flyers won't feel threatened and no more than 1 skirmish unit in an army as a skirmish army is a bane to non skirmish armies. My point is if limits are set for one then set for all.

I'm bringing Chaos Mortals

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  GobbladasSquig on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:50 am

What the max 1 large target does is stop lizardman stegadon spam, which just isn't balanced and against which you need a specifically designed army. Ie. it removes yet another rock-paper-scissors list. It also makes empire players decide between steam tank and war altar, which is nice because it brings a lot of variety to the lists we see. We also made the dark elf cauldron of blood count as a large target regarding the composition, which forces dark elves decide between hydra and the cauldron. Most armies however, are unaffected by the large target restriction.

As you see, our goal with the composition has always been to encourage players to go for new lists and ideas. Shuffle the deck up a bit, so to speak. It also makes for a friendlier environment in which to use infantry, which is then subsequently encouraged with the scenarios. But balancing the metagame is very difficult to manage, because everything affects everything, and we've gotten some feedback that our composition actually makes daemons stronger. It's a matter of perspective, really.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:58 am

What the max 1 large target does is stop lizardman stegadon spam, which just isn't balanced and against which you need a specifically designed army. Ie. it removes yet another rock-paper-scissors list. It also makes empire players decide between steam tank and war altar, which is nice because it brings a lot of variety to the lists we see. We also made the dark elf cauldron of blood count as a large target regarding the composition, which forces dark elves decide between hydra and the cauldron. Most armies however, are unaffected by the large target restriction.

Boo.

Lizardman Stegadon spam is just fine, thank you very much.

I don't see any problems with that, or Stank/Walter or Cauldron/Hydra.

I really don't think these ideas are very good at all. They don't accomplish anything worthwhile. Outright bans or restrictions are the big dumb hammer of composition rules, the ETC rules are no exception.

It also makes for a friendlier environment in which to use infantry, which is then subsequently encouraged with the scenarios.
We weren't having an infantry-hammer tournament last I checked. Why should your preference for infantry be expressed at the expense of Bill's preference for big monsters or Steve's preference for magic? See this is where people get screwed up. Composition is supposed to make for a BALANCED tournament. The assumption that all infantry is balanced is flawed, and in my opinion totally unsupportable. By making this statement, you have made it clear that you are not interested in balance as a first priority, but rather forcing your players to play a modified game based only on your whim and preferences. Who said there should be more infantry? Who said there should be less Stegadons? More infantry does not equal balance. Less Stegadons does not equal balance.

EDIT:
Just read your intro and I see you are from Finland. I guess that explains your adherence to the ETC. I was wondering why the hell someone in Canada would play with those castrated Warhammer rules. I am going to fight against it as hard as I can here.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Ironwoulf on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:13 am

Go with a system that rewards well rounded armies and penalizes min/maxer's, add in a players score. Then use scenarios to balance things out. If i have a missle heavy army a night fight or wet weather won't do me much good. A scenario where only a unit with a banner can take objectives is a good idea - lagre targets and other unit types aren't as useful.

Come up with 1 set scenario (basic pitched battle) and then the next 3 or 4 games are randomly chosen from a published list of 5 or 6 scenarios. - magic flux, wet weather, objectives, table quarters etc. We have a good group so should be able to come up with some fun ideas

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:35 am

Come up with 1 set scenario (basic pitched battle) and then the next 3 or 4 games are randomly chosen from a published list of 5 or 6 scenarios. - magic flux, wet weather, objectives, table quarters etc. We have a good group so should be able to come up with some fun ideas

If going that route, make sure players at least know the possible scenarios before lists are submitted. It always sucks to bring a gun to a wet weather, pitch black, knife fight.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Ironwoulf on Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:29 am

I totally agree. Post the scenarios at least 2 weeks befor the event. Arn't you suppose to be studyen?

Carson - if you want i can make up some scenarios for your approval/dissapproval and help with the paperwork, printing, tabulating, posting, set up, counter amking, beerage, etc

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Kuyp on Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:54 am

RickyDMMontoya wrote:
We weren't having an infantry-hammer tournament last I checked. Why should your preference for infantry be expressed at the expense of Bill's preference for big monsters or Steve's preference for magic? See this is where people get screwed up. Composition is supposed to make for a BALANCED tournament. The assumption that all infantry is balanced is flawed, and in my opinion totally unsupportable. By making this statement, you have made it clear that you are not interested in balance as a first priority, but rather forcing your players to play a modified game based only on your whim and preferences. Who said there should be more infantry? Who said there should be less Stegadons? More infantry does not equal balance. Less Stegadons does not equal balance.

this is the same way i feel about it as well. there should be absolutly no restctions as to what you can take (other than those of the rule books of course). I know that there is alot of problems to what i'm going to sugest and flaws but here it goes. A pre dettermined rank # for everyone. this number would be based on your list only, it would be judged on a level from one to ten, one being a powergamer list and 10 reaching a more freindly level. Your list would not be compared to other armies (deamons are powerfull no matter what so why punish a deamon player for playing deamons) but rather to what is avalible to your army and what makes up of a powerfull list for your army. this should help ballance out points wise, say a player witha comp score of 4 goes up a player with a score of 9 and massacers him he gets 8 points for the win added to his comp score he takes away 12 points for the game and the other gets 11. i had like a 5 pharagph rant writen up last night that had a bunch of my ideas on the subject but when i went to post it the site was "unavalible" and i lost it all, and i dont really fell like retyping that much.

i have another idea to sort of help out sportsmanship as well. give each player say 5 points or so that they can hand out to other players during the day for doing something thay see as really sportsmanlike, that way the reall good sports can get extra points rather than just those from playing a game.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:10 pm

Your list would not be compared to other armies

This, also, defeats the purpose of what comp is supposed to do.

The idea is to level the playing field between all the different players, so that any player has approximately the same chance of winning the tournament as any other based only on the lists they bring.

By not comparing the lists to each other you're not levelling anything and you might as well not bother.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Ironwoulf on Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:57 pm

So what makes a list a good or bad comped list? Eg. A HE list with 15 power dice and the rest of the list is core units and 1 special unit, or 4 power dice with min core and the rest tooled up characters, special and rare units.

Lets set up a comp frame work, post it so we know where we be at for comp and post the scenarios (which should favour some lists and penalize others).

Comp points for 5 or less power dice(includes the 2 freebies), more than min core units, for more than 20% points spent on core and 1 extra point for every 5% extra spent on core above 20%, for having less than max number of special/rare, for having less than 4 characters, for not having a lord,

Lose points for having more than 5 power dice, lose more points for 10 or more dice, lose for characters being 40% or more of list

Have the posting in 3 weeks so we have time to tweek lists and paint the tweeks or change armies all together.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:11 pm

I don't want to see anything as simple as "core=good, characters=bad."

I'd prefer a system of subjective evaluation by the tournament organizer, or otherwise knowledgeable panel of judges, to develop a tier system. Require lists to be submitted well in advance, and then just let players know they have a tier 1, 2 or 3 army. Offer advice on what the judges/organizer consider the reasons for the tiering and allow players to resubmit lists to try and get lower tier results. Provide 2 or 3 submission dates, so if players submit early they can resubmit. If they submit at one of the later dates, they get less chances to resubmit, or none at all.

If a player fails to submit lists at any of the dates, if they just turn up at the door, etc, they automatically get ranked tier 1.

Pair the tiered armies up for the first matches, and grant tournament point bonuses/penalties to any later unbalanced matches across tiers.

So in the first round, tier 1 only plays 1, 2 plays 2, 3 plays 3 etc.

After the first round go to the Swiss match pairing, where winners play winners. If a tier 1 player plays a tier 2 player in the second or later rounds, the tier 1 player gets -2 tournament points from the outcome, and the tier 2 player gets +2, if a tier 1 player plays a tier 3 player, the tier 1 player gets -4 points, and the tier 3 player gets +4 points. (of course the actual points would have to be determined relative and fairly with the total tournament points available in other areas.

Now, I realize this is a lot of work, and easy for me to recommend when I'm not the one doing it, but I'd be willing to judge lists if needed, as I think I have a pretty good eye for all the possible tricks out there. I know there are a few others in our league who do as well, so I bet we could get a neat little judge's panel of 3-5 members to deal with the lists appropriately.

Of course it may happen that there are is an uneven distribution of lists among the tiers, in that case, avoid 1-3 pairings in the first round, and apply the penalties.

The penalties/bonuses should be enough that between a 1/2 or 2/3 pairing, a massacre turns into a solid win, a solid win turns into a minor, a minor into a draw, etc. while for 1/3 pairings a massacre turns to a minor, solid win turns into a draw, minor win turns into a minor loss etc. So 1 level for 1/2 or 2/3, 2 levels for 1/3.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Ironwoulf on Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:11 pm

A ranking system will work too, as long as we all know whats happening. Whatever Carson decides on is good by me. Can this be done in the next 2 weeks and posted?

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Kallidon on Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:37 pm

The Australians are using something very similar to what Eric was talking about and are having great success at it. It requires alot of work on the front end for the organizer of course, but from interviews they they have with guys on Worlds End Radio and Podhammer, it appears to be working great. Of course, it was brought in to combat lists where people were going crazy.. primarily with Daemons and Vampire Count builds and more recently into the Dark Elf lists.

They still do comp different for the different events, but it usually revolves on a system of some sort. If your brinign a VC, DE or Daemons list, you might get a comp of 1-2 depending how hard the list. If your bringing a Beasts list with a lot of junk and is a really soft list, you might get scored a 10 comp.

Its quite subjective though, but in the end there is a panel doing it and is out of the hands of other players. If a list is deemed to be to crazy (20 power dice Tzeentch list) they might even decide to reject it. This of course depends entirely on the organizer, and it ussually sorts itself out. I think in one of their last big ones, with 60 entrants for fantasy they had to reject only one list.

Anyway, just some ideas I've hard through the podcasts. Those australian boys sure love their Fantasy. I should track down one of their tournie outlines and see what they have.

Ahhhh, comp, the ever present issue with Warhammer..

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:50 pm

The way I worked comp in the past was basically a "tier" system. 0-20 is the possible score based on 10 questions. The day of the tournament, first round match-ups were based on comp score.

I'm going to go with this type of system again but will be changing or updating some of the questions.

The comp list will be posted here shortly. If players have this list before hand, they know what score they will be recieving and more importantly what the general make-up of armies they are going to face.

In some of the tournaments I've read about overseas I can see why they place restrictions or limits on certain things. The UK GT comes to mind. I can see where our friend from Finland is coming from. However we have a pretty fair gaming group here and so don't seem to have those problems.

Bob, I accept your offer for scenarios. Make-up a bunch. PM me and I'll pick 4 from the bunch. These will also be posted asap.

So far in the masters series we have had a 1250pt introductory tournament, a 2000pt no comp, a 3000 ard boyz type tournament, and now I want to finish up the show with a full on comped hopefully balanced tournament.

One thing I love about this game is the type of debates it can generate Very Happy

I'll get the comp list up asap, so stay tuned.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

Post  Carson on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:08 pm

Ok, I finished up the list I was working on..........here goes.

1-Did you spend at least 700pts on core units
2-Did you spend 900 or more pts on core units
3-Did you fill more than your minimum core slots
4-Other than Highelves, did you refrain from filling your special or rare slots
5-Other than Highelves, do your core units outnumber your special and rare slots combined
6-did you spend 700 or less points on characters. note....this includes magic items, marks, daemonic gifts, vampire bloodlines, etc.
7- did you spend no more than 200pts on magic items
8-excluding artillery, do you have 2 or less units of missle armed troops.
9-does your army generate 8 or less powerdice. note.....that each bound item, prayer, tombking incantation counts as 1 powerdice for this calculation.
10- does your army have only 1 unit or less with the flying special rule.

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Re: Round 4 masters......Dec

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