Playing to win vs. Cheese

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Playing to win vs. Cheese

Post  nathanr on Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:52 pm

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206946

I figured since I'm playing the much-hated bretonnian army this next league I should look into the cheese debate that seems to plague Warhammer as of late. It seems as though there are a few different views here.

1. There are the "just for fun" hippy-types that only take an army based on asthetics and how they feel that particular day, these are the guys that seem to cry the loudest about cheese. I have found myself taking this position from time to time, but I try to be realistic about what my chances are going in and I try to be a good sport regardless.

2. There are the middle of the road, try to be competitive while limiting their own army list for fear of being labelled. This is where I normally try to put myself.

3. There are the people who can't help but to take the best possible list but are angry at the balance issues that cause them to be labelled as "cheesy". This category could also include players who have chosen an army based on fluff that just so happens to be the power army of the day. Very often have I heard "what army do you have? Daemons/Bretonnians/VC?!? CHEESE!" without the person even knowing what actual units the other has.

4. Then there are the real stinky cheese players who take the strongest possible list with the sole purpose in life of totally destroying all comers. They exploit the loopholes or balance issues in the game to the extreme and don't really care. Luckily these players are few and far between and from what I've seen we don't seem to have any hanging around our league.

After reading this on Warseer I will definitely think twice before I judge a player solely on the army that they play. I think the "cheesy" player (type 3) has gotten an unfair label for the most part with sportsmanship scores based solely on their army choice (that is what comp. scores are for). Furthermore, I think the poor loser often gets overlooked in sportsmanship, with opponents giving them good scores simply because they feel bad they beat them so badly. I know I've done that.

This has been a very long winded post without much in the way of actual content. I guess what I'm trying to say is: if you are going to make a winning list, don't be a dick about it when you win. On the flip side, if you are going to make a list just on the basis of looks, don't cry about it when you lose. I expect everyone to hold me to those same standards (I think I'm in both those categories). So far we've done quite well in both those regards, lets keep it up!

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Re: Playing to win vs. Cheese

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:47 pm

I try to judge each players army on it's own merits. Example of powerful book armies that were made playable and fun would be Eric's demon army. It's tough though. Some armies are just better. Bret's are a prime example that have been overshadowed by some of the newer books, but they're still just amazing at what they're designed to do. Too good, if you ask me.

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Re: Playing to win vs. Cheese

Post  Carson on Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:01 pm

I've had trouble with three armies....that is being able to judge the army on its own merits. Deamons, bretonnians and Woodelves. Now I've seen great balanced armies from all three....mainly from players in our own community. Its tough to keep these points in mind though when you know how easily these books can be abused.

I've less of an issue with the cheese debate lately though as I havn't been able to attend as many out of town tournaments as in the past.

I think the main issue with these armies is the players associated with them. I've got no trouble playing a bent list if the offending player has the balls to admit it. Theres nothing worse than having a player make 19 of 20 5+ ward saves and then act like it was thier tactical brilliance that one them the game.

I remember a former player that would proudly proclaim that he won because "the game is all about mobility and tactics" as he removed his entirely mounted bretonnian army from the table Shocked

Just about every army can be broken by the powergamer though..................

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Re: Playing to win vs. Cheese

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:56 pm

Wood elves is a tough one for me too. It's just that the army is so far from the norm of what I like about warhammer, big blocks of infantry hitting each other. Also they're so damn gay. Way watchers, tree singing, sprites and forest spirits. Puke. Give me a goddamn Orc or dwarf please!

The other issue Nathan pointed out, about giving high sportsmanship to a defeated player simply because they lost is one I know I am guilty of. I have had opponents who have had the business end of a luck probability curve pointed at them for 6 turns and still done their part to make a game enjoyable and they deserved their points. But I have from time to time given out a big score to somebody just because they weren't the worst a-holes in the world. Shouldn't, but sometimes it's tough to score a guy down on sportsmanship becuase you beat him so badly. Ah well.

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Re: Playing to win vs. Cheese

Post  Mhael on Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:38 am

I think people should keep in mind that it is a game meant to be enjoyed by both sides. While I tend to be highly competitive in all things I attempt and get upset when I lose it is also sometimes fun to go against or defend against these tough armies. I have no problem with Nathans wood elves list it is fun to play against but I do need to figure out how to advance against such powerful missle fire TK as well. The point is to play so that both people enjoy it and want to play against each other again.

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Re: Playing to win vs. Cheese

Post  nathanr on Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:04 am

I think it comes down to the attitude of the two players as well. There is nothing wrong with being competitive, but don't be so competitive that you forget to have fun.

Also, on a somewhat related side note, is my Wood Elf army too much? I would feel bad if Scott and Carson's posts were aimed to be subtle hints that I've gone a bit too "power gamey". Embarassed Well, no need to worry because this league I'm toning it down a bit with Bretonnians! Twisted Evil

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Re: Playing to win vs. Cheese

Post  Carson on Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:22 pm

No your Wood elf army is good. Its the WoodElf army in general as it generally defys the conventions of warhammer. Its also the definition of points denial as its really hard to score large numbers of vps off of it.

Those two factors when combined with a powergamer can lead to some very bad games.

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