My Bretonnian list

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My Bretonnian list

Post  nathanr on Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:30 am

Squalie said that he was the only one stupid enough to post an army list, well you can add me to that number now. I know everyone around here has a fierce hate for the bretonnians but I'm going to post my list here anyway. I'm at work and I can't remember exactly the magic items so I'm not going to post those (they aren't all that important anyway) but here it is:

Characters:
Lord on Royal Pegasus
Hero on Royal Pegasus
Battle Standard Bearer

Core:
6 Knights of the realm (full command)
6 Knights of the realm (full command)
5 Knights of the realm (full command) - BSB goes in here

Special:
Grail Reliquae with 24 grail pilgrims
3 Pegasus knights
3 Pegasus knights
3 Pegasus knights

2000 ish points
54 models
2 dispel dice

The lack of dispel dice don't bother me too much since I have the pegasus knights and characters to go mage-hunting early in the game, plus I have good armour and the ward save so I don't have to worry as much about most damage spells. I have good manouverability and serious hitting power on the charge. The grail pilgrims give me some static combat resolution and with their stubbornness, hatred and fairly good defence they can also be used to hold a flank. Plus until all the pilgrims are dead the reliquae can't be targetted so I always get at least 4 attacks in any combat it is a part of. The characters are all tooled to be combat machines (as much as a human can be).

What do y'all think?

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:55 pm

I think this is a damned if you do, dmaned if you don't list.

It looks EFFECTIVE to me because it has a lot going for it. With the 3 lances you can break units in a charge. You've got the small unit of grail pilgrims (I'm sure they're only there because you've got them painted, right) that looks a little lost to me.

All the firepower on the pegasus models is dangerous. Unlike the minoataurs you've got a 20" 360 degree flying charge which means with hills and stuff you can really be selective about picking combats, and the extra long range means it's very easy to support your lances as you need as well. Never mind the dirtyness of flying behind combats to autokill the bad guys.

So.... my thoughts.... If you win you'll get tanked in comp for taking this odd Bret list. Bret's have a tough time of it comp wise from opponents anyway (At least from THIS opponent) and this will be no exception, if you win.

But if you lose be prepared to get ear-banged about how great your army is, how nobody has played against a list like that. That's my guess.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  nathanr on Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:46 pm

Small unit of grail pilgrims? That is the max. unit size! 5 ranks of 6 (the reliquae is on a 60mm x 40mm base) is not what I call a small unit!

All my units are there for a reason, and that reason is theme! The army is a crusading force led and supported by angels (pegasus knights and characters on royal pegasi). The grail reliquae and pilgrims are the random followers that have joined the cause and become monks. They haul around a giant cross (kind of like the one in Kingdom of Heaven) which is the reliquae.

I didn't want to go the "all knights-all the time" approach that I've seen too many Bretonnian players take, but the men-at-arms just plain suck and the bowmen are decidedly average. The grail pilgrims are actually a half-decent unit: Sure they only have weapon skill 2 but they have hatred so they have 2 chances at hitting you. They are also stubborn, have the blessing and half decent armour (shield and light armour). The reliquae also functions as both a musician and standard and can't be targeted until all the pilgrims are dead so it always gets to attack in combat with its 4 attacks. They even have a decent leadership and can use the leadership of any nearby knights too. It is a really cool unit, plus it gives me the static combat resolution that I don't otherwise have.

I fully expect to get some grief from opponents about this army, but hopefully I can win them over on theme and all the conversions I'm going to have! I spent all of last night with a dremel tool making witch elves into angels! I think I'm actually going to hold off on fielding them until they are all done though so they might not be unveiled until after the next league!

edit: I've had 2 test battles with this army and I really like how it did. The first game was against a fast-cavalry based wood elf army that didn't have a chance. My pegasus knights chased down and slaughtered his glade rider units and my knights let the wild riders bounce off their armour before counter-charging with my characters who ripped them to shreds. The grail pilgrims held up a unit of wild riders that attempted to flank me, holding long enough for my pegasus knights to finish off the glade riders and come back for a flank charge.

The other game was against a Vampire Count army built to raise skeletons. I did fairly well against this army too, and I would have done better but my opponent was kind of a douche-bag, not letting me make a game-winning flank-charge because he "didn't mean to leave enough room for my pegasus knights to fit there" My lack of magic defense was more evident here as he was able to raise lots and lots of skeletons every turn. It didn't bother me that much since I was able to kill lots and lots of skeletons every turn too. In the end it was a minor victory for him.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:49 pm

I don't know why I put small in my talk of your grail reliquae. It's obv. not small.
I worry about the effectiveness of a single unit of infantry, but stubborn does help.

Who was your VC opponent?

Theme will work on rookie players and such. But if you really cook your opponent they're likely going to think you made a strong army list, then figured your theme out.

Painting wise your theme will really come into play!

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  nathanr on Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:36 pm

ScottRadom wrote:Theme will work on rookie players and such. But if you really cook your opponent they're likely going to think you made a strong army list, then figured your theme out.

I actually did the opposite, I thought of the idea and then decided on an army that best matched that theme. Originally it was going to be wood elves with Orion as the general/major angel since he makes wild riders core. Throw in some warhawk rider angels and some eternal guard monks and it matches the theme too. Daemons would work too with furies and bloodletters, but I really wanted the lesser angels to be the focus and survivable so Bretonnians were the clear choice, especially with the crusading theme. I wrote out a bit of a story to go along with the army but I'm at work and it is at home. I'll post it here once I have time.

As for the effectiveness of the single infantry unit, it all comes down to being able to use it in support of all the other units. The pilgrims are the most expensive unit in my army so they can't be used as a throwaway or distraction. I think that the main advantage is that nobody uses them so few people know what to expect from them. I didn't even know what to expect and was pleasantly suprised when they not only took the charge from a unit of wild riders with a character in them, they won the very next round of combat and then kept on winning until the pegasus knights came back to help. I think they are most effective when I have a unit or two of knights or pegasus knights to support them.

The two games I played were actually online on another forum here:
vs. Vampire counts
vs. wood elves

So they don't really count as games, and some of my enemy's dice rolls might have been faked (mine were all legitimate) but they were good for testing out the army. (I'm Hillbilly Carl on that forum and I really let out my inner nerd!).

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:06 pm

Oh I know you themed your army out first, and built it second. I'm just saying that from the tournies we've gone to there are lots and lots fo people who will try and sell you a BS list with a narrative story behind it and call it themed. example....

My lvl 4 dark elf wizard and her 3 apprentice wizards are rich, and they bought 4 repeater bolt throwers to shoot at you.

Not saying your's is in that category but some won't by the fluffy explanation if you really maul them in the game.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:11 pm

Also be warned that with so many Pegasus equipped models you are treading the territory of one of the dreaded 3 letter acronyms of Warhammer:
RAF.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  nathanr on Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:32 pm

I hear you, and while some people might call me cheap and my army a RAF Bretonnian list I think there are much worse bretonnian armies out there. I could have dropped the grail pilgrims and instead gone for grail knights (which are awesome) or another unit or two of knights. I also could have mounted my battle standard on a pegasus and really made it into a flying circus! I know that is a poor excuse similar to the Tzeentch general who says "My 15 power dice army isn't that bad, I could have had 17!" but it really could be worse. Don't worry about the theme though, once you see my angels and angelic characters there won't be any question as to why this army was built!

I've also toyed with the idea of a Bretonnian peasant army but I don't have the money or painting time to make a terrible horde army that I would use twice as a joke and then abandon. It can be done, but you really have to change your thinking as to what a Bretonnian army is supposed to be and that is hard.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:03 pm

I don't know what RAF is for.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  Carson on Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:30 pm

Brets are one of the armies that deservedly have a bad rep. Its one of the books that really dosn't have any questionable choices...maybe other than questing knights....although they ain't bad either. Peasents while looking bad are actually really useful in the army as a few of these cheap units allow any Bret player to easily outdeploy most armies and focus his lances into one big killing thrust on a narrow frontage. Oh so my army is fully deployed and you have yet to put 75% of your points on the board...oh goody!
So like Scott said your really damned if you do and damned if you don't. In tournaments I really try to score the player and army accurately but I have to admit that if I come against a Bret or Deamon player its really hard to be subjective.

As to your list. We'll its Brets...pretty hard to find any faults when every unit is useful and really good at what it does. Yours will be nicely themed and your painting looks good also but as your aware prepare to take the ribbing.

That being said youv'e inspired me to post up my planned Darkelves list.....another army that has developed a reputation, mainly from the over-the-top magic item list. We'll see what the reaction is to this!

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:41 pm

Demons, Brets, and maybe Dark Elves have to earn their army comp scores. The list Eric has used for demons in the league is an example of one where the guy has worked hard to make a list enjoyable for all as opposed to just taking a stock example army and runnin' wild on the opposition.

Bret's are just very, very good. With all the talk about Demons and how little Stash knows about airbrushing I've forgotten how bad I hate Bret's. They're just really, really good at what they do.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  Carson on Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:53 pm

Yeah Eric really tried to use a friendly list.....but fuck it....thier still deamons. Really, really , really good at what they do.

But again yes, nice job Eric!

You know I use to focus all my hatred on Wood Elves. I have to thank GW for letting me move my attention to Brets and Daemons!

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:42 pm

Royal Air Force.

There's royalty on a Pegasus, and then a bunch of flying things. Reached its peak a few years ago along with the other 3 letter acronym in the UK and US tournament circuit. They generally had a couple more Pegasusesesesi than Nathan's example here, but acted like a flying circus. When 1000 points of an army can just fly around behind you, and the other half is lances of knights charging at you, it doesn't lead to a lot of options

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  ben the kid is back on Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:54 pm

ah yes mage hunting will not be very effective if your oponent, is using a slann in a unit of 20 temple gurd

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  nathanr on Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Then I just have to kill the unit - mage-hunting comes in many forms!

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  ben the kid is back on Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:32 pm

nathanr wrote:Then I just have to kill the unit - mage-hunting comes in many forms!

good point

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  nathanr on Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:04 pm

besides, a unit like that has to be close to 500 points or so right? That is 1/4 of your army which is movement 4. I can avoid it all game long making it a 2000 vs. 1500 point game. Of course that means I have to deal with trying to stop your magic by other means but that is doable.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  Kuyp on Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:37 pm

haha, a unit like that can be 800 pts, way too many to put in one spot, especially
against some one who is good with a stone thrower.....

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  ben the kid is back on Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:39 am

nathanr wrote:besides, a unit like that has to be close to 500 points or so right? That is 1/4 of your army which is movement 4. I can avoid it all game long making it a 2000 vs. 1500 point game. Of course that means I have to deal with trying to stop your magic by other means but that is doable.

yes but if you avoid it and i put them in center of the battle field you, will avoid the center of of the battle field
500 points in the middle and 750 on each flank, pretty solid plan Smile

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  nathanr on Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:23 pm

Ok, to bump this army up to 2200 points I've done the following:

Dropped all the banners and musicians from the pegasus knight units, lost a few virtues and magic items and added a unit of 5 grail knights with a banner and musician and a level 1 damsel with scrolls. Are the grail knights too much? Am I getting too far into the realm of power-gaming? Will you still be my friend after playing against this army? Let me know!

One other change that I might make is to drop one of the units of pegasus knights, give the remaining two units their banners and musicians back and toss in a large unit of skirmishing peasant archers (20-30 or so). Thoughts?

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  Carson on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:09 pm

No Grail knights are no biggy. A lance is lance as far as I'm concerned. What can give your opponents fits though are the multiple units of pegasus knights.

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Re: My Bretonnian list

Post  Patchfur on Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:13 am

Not enough staying power. The flying units are cool but low point horde shootiness or lots of magic are an issue.

Hard characters are also mounted on vulnerable targets. The monsters have no save and you could end up with some knights on foot pretty quick.

It is wonderful to be able to drop behind folks so that they cannot flee from a lance charge. But a unit or two of yeomen do it cheaper and can distract far more points worth.

You need something cheap to hold table quarters, redirect charges, distract shooting, and otherwise be annoying. And provide mass to a bogged down lance. Also, something to peel off march blockers. You can do those things with a unit of flying skirmishers in reserve but peasants are cheaper.

The list is certainly competitive but I'd say a more conventional list with some more peasants is probably a tougher fight. The hidden gem in the peasants is that their banners don't give up victory points. That is a lot of plus one CR In small units with no downside.

The main irritant in the list is the flying skirmishers that can't be blocked or pinned. If played as faster lances it won't be so upsetting. But then you've invested a lot in the flying cavalry. Flying terror causers are also annoying. The issue with the RAF is that this flying terror causer is bringing a dozen of his best mates and their gear along potentially on turn one.

Cool looking list, but a shooting army with armour piercing will rip it to bits pronto and leave the characters walking. Bring more peasants so you can scorn them!

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