Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

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Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:09 pm

So I promised in another thread to spark off a discussion on the relative merits of magic. The link to the warhammer.org.uk thread is here.
The general gist of the idea is that the points you would otherwise spend on regular magic defence (dispel scrolls and dice) can be better spent on simply having more guys to fight. That original thread (The Return of the Suicide Elves) is about a rather successful Dark Elf army that completely forgoes all forms of magic defence, including the rather ubiquitous Ring of Hotek. The Suicide Elves army was based on another 6th edition High Elf army that did much the same thing.

Now, the thing is that although these armies have decided to ignore their own defensive magic, they haven't gone crazy on heavy cav or monsters or anything like that, they've built their forces (almost exclusively) around elite infantry. If an army of relatively expensive T3 models with poor (or no) saves can weather tournament level magic with an impressive array of victories then I think any of the Warhammer armies can do it.

This league I have been running a Daemon list (boo! hiss! I know) with no magic. Except for a single game where I experimented with the Great Standard of Sundering (-2 to cast for a single lore), all I have had is my basic 2 dispel dice. The single game I did use the Standard of Sundering I was up against Teclis and his buddies with the Banner of Sorcery. The standard didn't help at all, as every spell was cast with 15+ or Irresistible force anyways. I weathered that game rather easily and based on the experience of going up against a 13+ power dice High Magic magic phase decided to do away with that banner as well.

I've used this same list against my brother's (yes, he still plays the game, just not frequently) 12 power dice Vampire Counts magic phase with 3 bound spells and fared just as well. Now the immediate criticism is to simply shout "Yeah, but you're using Daemons, so that's why you're not losing," but I don't think that criticism is well founded, as my army is largely centered around a unit of Bloodletters, who with their Herald clock in at around 600 points. The biggest advantage of the Bloodletters in regard to weathering magic is their immunity to psychology, particularly panic. They don't hit especially hard, and they don't survive especially well, with only T3 and 5+ (ward) save. I am sure most other armies can devise a more efficient anvil unit for that many points that is equally able to take casualties without heading for the hills.

If the enemy has primarily damage spells, just take it. You can't dispel a Helblaster and handgunners don't miscast. I think players account for the potential casualties a shooty army can inflict on them, and expect to get bloodied when facing a Dwarf army with a third of their points invested in black powder. I think the existence of dispel dice and scrolls somehow grips players' imaginations so they think that taking them is a beneficial investment.

A level 1 Empire Wizard with 2 scrolls is 115 points. For those points, you're able to automatically dispel 2 (non-irresistible) spells and you get an extra dice, which might dispel another over the course of the game. If each of the spells you stop is the equivalent of 2d6 S4 hits (a mid to high level spell), those points would be better spent on a unit of Knights, or Handgunners or Swordsmen or anything. The amount of casualties those spells inflict is less than the amount of extra models you can purchase for that 115 points.

Meanwhile, if you do take the 115 point Empire Wizard, he won't be actively contributing anything to the game. Whatever he can cast on 2 dice isn't likely going to do anything, and will be dispelled more often than not by the 2 basic dice every player has access to. The unit of 5 Knights, or 10 Handgunners or 20 Swordsmen? That can do something! Imagine what your 115 point wizard will be doing against Dwarfs in a tournament. Now imagine what another unit of 5 Knights will be doing.

Another thing you have to do is protect him. It is amazing the lengths players will go to to protect their wizards. Freeing yourself by not taking fragile, unarmoured, expensive characters can open up whole new lines of aggressive play that would not have otherwise been apparent. Without any fragile wizards in your army, your opponent's Harpies/Dark Riders/Furies/etc. will be rendered moot.

Now it is true that there are spells out there that are more potent than 2d6 S4 hits. Some of the new magic is downright terrifying, and I believe this is what Scott alluded to when he said he could live with no magic in 6th edition, but going without in 7th would make him ill. Infernal Gateway can destroy an entire unit, characters and all in a single magic phase. Vampire Counts can cast Vanhel's Dance Macabre again and again and move their entire army in a single phase. Spirit of the Forge can annihilate huge expensive units of Knights. Magic is scary. Those effects can end games. But without stopping them, you can account for them and play around them. In fact, I think playing with not stopping them in mind is a better way to go, since if you are relying on a dispel scroll to prevent that Vampire charge, or stop that Infernal Gateway, one roll of boxcars will end your "plan."

When facing Vampires, plan your movement phase with their extra 8" from Vanhel's in mind. Remember that you can flee from pretty much every form of magic movement these days. Use their overconfidence in their magic movement phase to lead themselves into a trap. Don't overextend yourself. When facing a Tzeentch Sorceror, don't put your General and BSB in your most expensive unit.

Most importantly, and in general, kill their wizards. As mentioned above, wizards are usually fragile and unarmoured. Have multiple units in your army capable of threatening enemy wizards, and capable of killing them. Fast cav, flyers, scouts, skirmishers, a fast aggressive combat hero. If these units just threaten but don't engage the enemy wizard (perhaps because the enemy wizard blew them up to save his own skin) you are setting the terms of the battle. While your 60 point fast cav unit was annihilated by the focus of his 400+ point Wizard Lord, the rest of your army got at least 8" closer to victory.

Also note that one of the benefits of taking no magic is that your enemy's magic defence will be totally wasted points. Even if he goes crazy magic heavy but doesn't take any scrolls, a significant portion of the points cost of his wizard lord and wizards is due their passive generation of dispel dice. By giving him no opportunity to use those dispel dice, you have forced him to waste his points and given yourself an advantage. It's like a legitimate way to bring more points to the game than the other guy.

This point is best illustrated by imagining two armies, exact mirror versions of the other, except that player A has a single scroll caddy, while the player B has another unit of Knights. The scroll caddy is totally usless to Player A. With nothing to dispel, he is dead weight, and he won't be able to sneak his 2 dice spell past the other players' basic dispel dice - even if he does, it doesn't do as much damage as the unit of Knights can. Player A will also be constrained to defend his fragile wizard to avoid giving up easy victory points to Player B. This will alter his tactics and restrict his play.

Overall, it is the increased ability to fight and absorb casualties, the freedom from defending weak characters, the avoidance of wasted points against Dwarfs, etc. which all have convinced me that it is perfectly legitimate to play with no magic in 7th edition.

Begin discussion:

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  ScottRadom on Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:50 pm

Can it work? Sure. I've never bothered with a scroll caddy as I'd rather use my wizards offensively, using the points to boost their own magic level or to spend it on a bolt thrower or whatever.

Where I think it breaks down is in the panic dept. Elves, dwarf's can handle it better with their higher leadership but Humans and Orcs with ld 7 can't afford to be taking the panic tests a high magic army can dish out. It comes down to match up's and tabletop decisions as well.

You make a good point about not being able to dispel shooting. That's why the gunline has worked so well in the past. It doesn't get played much around here because is was just too effective. Weathering shooting AND even modest magical support is a nightmare for the low/average ld army.

Demons don't have to roll ld dice very often, same with undead. Gunline's and offensive magic armies are gonna have a tough time against a highspeed demon army for many reasons but no panic is a big reason for that.

My solution in 6th was the all powerful "GET 'EM" theory. Yes I too used demons mostly in those days. If there was something I had to kill I sent a 500 point demon prince at it and killed it. A lvl 4 wizard would get killed. Lvl 2 wizards, anything that had the potential to do more than just cause wounds with crazy and clever magic had to die. This can get carried over into the cheaper armies likes Orcs and Empire with some fast cav, or even custom built small units of heavy cav or lone magic assasin style characters.

I guess my caution is that magic is too powerful in 7th to just be ignored. I like not spending the points to defend against it directly, but I would have at least some plan in place. Make sure you've got part of your army that is designed to beat the enemy, even if it isn't in the magic phase. maybe....

1) More units to make the enemy think about. If there 3 potential threats then thats three times the enemy must roll dice to hope to succeed
2) Biger units if magic missile's are a worry. It's tough to panic 40 night goblins.
3) fast stuff working in unison. One unit of fast cav may not be a big deal. What about 2? Maybe 3?

Good discussion. If I knew how I'd move it to the tactics section though.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  nathanr on Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:25 pm

Here is my take on this, I'm sure you guys will disagree with some/all of what I have to say but whatever. I personally don't usually go too magic-heavy but I've played dwarfs for most of my warhammering days so magic is a strange and foreign thing to me! Even when I use wood elves I don't usually take too many wizards, just enough that I can get one or two treesings off in a turn.

In playing a dwarf army I am already at an advantage in the anti-magic department since I get the same number of dispel dice as someone who has taken 2 hero-level wizards or 1 lord-level wizard. Plus my anti-magic guys aren't as squishy, heck I can have a gromril-armoured, great weapon-weilding scroll caddy! That said, for the same number of points I can have an organ gun which can be way more effective in my opinion.

I have only once been on the receiving end of an all-magic based army. I only had my 4 base dispel dice and I was massacred. This was Stash's infamous Tzeentch army and I don't think I would have fared much better even if I had taken a few runesmiths loaded up with runes of spellbreaking. I don't think that we should be focusing on how to counter armies like this (all-magic, all the time). They are rare and generally not fun to play with or against.

I also played a game with my new bretonnian army that I am building against a Vampire Count army. The VC army was quite character heavy with an emphasis on raising skeletons. My opponent got a solid victory even though in the course of the game I killed close to 100 skeletons and countless zombies. The problem was, I only had 2 dispel dice so I could only stop 1 spell per turn which gave my opponent the opportunity to replenish his units as much as he wanted. I simply got bogged down. In the end I managed to kill all but one of his vampires, but it was too little, too late. I think if I had a couple scrolls I could have blocked a few key raises and taken a flank early in the game which would have turned the tables quite drastically. That said, the fact that I killed so many models every turn meant that he had to spend his power dice raising reinforcements instead of casting offensive spells so you could equally argue that the points I spent on an extra unit of knights instead of a scroll caddy were more effective for me. I guess the point to take from this is that even with only 2 dispel dice vs. his 11 power dice plus bound spells, I was able to have a fun and close game and I don't think that it would have been too much different with a scroll caddy.

I agree that against most armies you can survive and even win with no form of magical defense. You have to be very selective with what spell you choose to dispel each turn with your 2 power dice. One thing that people also often forget is that even if you have no wizards you should still get 2 power dice in your magic phase (even dwarfs). Use them to dispel remains-in-play spells! In my opinion, having a scroll caddy just for the sake of having a scroll caddy is a waste of points. There are plenty of items that give units magic resistance that cost way less than a wizard and do the same job defensively. If you take wizards, take enough to be able to get a couple spells off (2 level 2's is probably the minimum) and then give them each a scroll if you want.

In conclusion:
- Don't worry about crazy-magicky armies. They are few and far between and not worth changing your tactics for. Your level 1 scroll caddy isn't going to change anything anyway.
- If you take magic-users, take them for offense as well as defense.
- If you don't take magic-users, be smart about what you choose to dispel and look for items that boost your magic defense for a fraction of the cost of a wizard.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  Carson on Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:34 pm

Good article Eric. We talked about this the other day and It works with most large armies. I tried it out against Kendric's maxed out HighElves army. With only 2 dispel dice I wethered the storm handily.....but I did have large units and kept them quite centralised in order use my generals ld. Also, High magic is not as offensively devastateing. Against other tough magic lists I would of been slaughtered.......chaos magic anyone!

I'm going to try this out with the DarkElves army I'm putting together but will be using the Ring of Hotek.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:10 pm

nathanr wrote:I think if I had a couple scrolls I could have blocked a few key raises
I disagree with this entirely. With Vampires having the ability to cast (and recast) Invocation of Nehek on one dice on a 3+ with more than 10 dice, you spending 50 points on dispel scrolls to stop 2 of his 10 attempts in a SINGLE magic phase is simply not a worthwhile investment. With proper support of his casters there simply is no such thing as "a few key raises." A few dozen maybe. If he wants that key raise, and you want to stop it, you better have 10 dispel dice, +2 to dispel, the ability to re-roll dispels, and a half-dozen scrolls. Anything less and you're better off with nothing.

I find that it is better to simply treat all rank and file undead units as having 3 ranks and strength on you before engaging in combat. I have found it easiest to win when the Vampire player is funneling all his dice into Invocation. If he's doing that then he's not hurting your own troops and he's not Vanhel's-ing across the board.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  nathanr on Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:07 pm

I disagree with this entirely. With Vampires having the ability to cast (and recast) Invocation of Nehek on one dice on a 3+ with more than 10 dice, you spending 50 points on dispel scrolls to stop 2 of his 10 attempts in a SINGLE magic phase is simply not a worthwhile investment. With proper support of his casters there simply is no such thing as "a few key raises." A few dozen maybe. If he wants that key raise, and you want to stop it, you better have 10 dispel dice, +2 to dispel, the ability to re-roll dispels, and a half-dozen scrolls. Anything less and you're better off with nothing.

Except that in a single round of combat I was killing 10-15 skeletons due to wounds and crumbling (several times he ended up with a single model). He had to cast invocation 3 times to get the skeletons up to a number where I wouldn't kill the whole unit. If I could have blocked a couple of those spells early in the game it would have meant a dead unit of skeletons and an open flank. Instead my flanking force was bogged down all game with that unit of skeletons. He was just staying ahead of my killing with his spells across the table so if I could have stopped a few more of those spells I think it would have tipped the balance. If you look at it as a pure mathematical exercise as 50 points to stop two minor spells it's true that it doesn't make sense. But if those two stopped spells result in a unit being destroyed and a flank being opened early in the game it is well worth the 50 points.

I think you missed my point though. That whole story was aimed to show two different approaches to the same problem. Without a scroll caddy it is true that I lost the game, but at no point did I feel overwhelmed by magic. I simply accepted that my opponent was going to be able to raise a lot of skeletons every turn and that I would have to kill as many as I could. It resulted in a fun game for both of us and it felt very epic as my brave knights fought their way through never-ending hordes of undead. The other approach that I could have taken would have resulted in a much different style of game with the magical battle being more of a focus. I may well have lost that game too, but it is still a valid approach. I later went on to say that if you take magic users, you should take enough that you can be offensive as well as defensive.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  Carson on Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:10 pm

Its virtually impossible to stop raises now as Vampires can cast the same spell more than once in each magic phase. I don't have a problem with this though as they are limited to d6 per raise plus they must have payed for the "bloodline power" to raise the unit beyound its starting strength. What really hurts in the vampires magic phase is the ability to cast vanhels multiple times.

I did'nt realise they could cast the same spell multiple times until after I played in OctoCon with them. Wouldn't of helped me though as I played a purely closecombat undead army, something that surprised most of my opponents. I maybe got off a couple of spells every game.

Playing against Vampires I would save all my dispel dice for those spells such as vanhels. Undead are one of the few armies that don't care about the mighty Bret lance charge.

What Nathan is saying is true though, Sometimes the lowliest spell let through can shape the dynamics of the game.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  Carson on Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:13 pm

On another note, I don't get the idea of winning by magic. Everyone has thier own likes and dislikes but man youv'e got to get in there, mix it up, and bash somebodies head in till they run away.

Or you could sit back and throw dice down on the table while complaining that your spell only killed half of your enemys unit instead of the whole thing. damn!

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  nathanr on Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:06 pm

Well, I'm going to attempt to go an entire league with no scrolls and only 2 dispel dice once I get my bretonnians up and running so I'll put it to the test. Of course I will be at an advantage since I have decent leadership and good armour plus the extremely reliable blessing of the lady!

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  squalie on Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:06 pm

Here's what I'm thinkin' to test this theory:

Doombull (undivided)

4 Mino's GW
4 Mino's GW
4 Mino's GW
4 Mino's GW
4 Chariots (Slaanesh, ITP)
4x5 Hounds
5 Centigors
5 Centigors
4 Slaanesh Spawn

1 character, 2 dispel dice, 1999 pts. I'm loco enough to give this a run for the 2 tournies at the end of the month. What say you? If I change everything to Khorne (which I don't like), I'll have 10 dispel dice but fewer units as the mark alone costs 45 pts.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  Carson on Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:23 pm

We'll I definitely think its doable. Lots of threats in this force so no one unit can be targeted to reduce your combat. Your really going to have to set your combats up carefully though.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:04 pm

I think the list is crap, and will perform about the same. With no static combat resolution, almost zero armor save in the army I just can't imagine this performing well. As a former Ogre player I know it's easy to look at the army list and think "Man, I got T4 and a bitchin' amount of attacks!" but you'll typically be hitting on 4's, wounding on 2's with the minotaurs and that just won't hack it. You might win combats but it's unlikely you'll break units of dwarfs, demons, undead and the other stuff you will have to fight at tournies. The chariots and spaw help, but to killable and unpredictable.

It's a gimmick list for sure, you're banking on clubbing people to death with all your attacks, I just don't think it'll work. Low LD will kick your balls around too.

But I have been wrong before. 1997 to be exact.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:27 pm

Well, with the Chariots and Minotaurs in the front, and the centigors or what have you on the flank, they could beat the Dwarfs. They just have to find a way around enemy static res.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:07 pm

RickyDMMontoya wrote:Well, with the Chariots and Minotaurs in the front, and the centigors or what have you on the flank, they could beat the Dwarfs. They just have to find a way around enemy static res.

This could only happen in imagination land. No dwarf player will lose to this army. I will fight this battle 100 times and never lose. It's just too easy to shoot up the centigor's to the point of having no flank threatening status, and then I just can't imagine enough beastpower hitting the front to cause damage. Throw in some LD10 break tests with re-rolls and a little character support and there goes the day. Also not enough fear causing US to cause the insane courage rolls neccesary in this list for it to have a chance against dwarfs.

The beast army has a slim chance of beating some armies in a rock-paper-scissors style match up, but just like the Ogre Kingdoms list Don's army is just a poor mans version of Bretonians.

That should settle that, I think.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  squalie on Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:54 pm

Scott, that "popping" noise you hear is the sound of your head coming out your @$$. (stop it, you know I love ya'...)

Now, on with the show...

I certainly never intended to make a GT list, I was just trying to make something fun that follows the no-magic criteria. Plus, I have been the only one with enough stupidity to post a list. Not much I can do about the armour as it's a relatively rare thing in a Beasts army, but the leadership isn't as bad as you may think. Mino's are Leadership 8 and with the undivided re-roll for psychology -- effectively ld 10. 4 Slaanesh Spawn make pretty decent warmachine hunters and even snipe a mage or two. I almost never flee with the Chariots so making them ITP really helps with the leadership tests. Panic is almost a non-issue with this army. Another rare thing for Beasts.

There is no doubt that there are holes in the army -- lack of static res being one of them. But I think it'll be fun to play. I knew Scott would be all over this list but really...
[/quote]Don's army is just a poor mans version of Bretonians.[/quote] That hurts, Man. That really hurts.

I'd definately try that Dwarf army though.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:08 pm

ScottRadom wrote:This could only happen in imagination land. No dwarf player will lose to this army. I will fight this battle 100 times and never lose. It's just too easy to shoot up the centigor's to the point of having no flank threatening status, and then I just can't imagine enough beastpower hitting the front to cause damage. Throw in some LD10 break tests with re-rolls and a little character support and there goes the day. Also not enough fear causing US to cause the insane courage rolls neccesary in this list for it to have a chance against dwarfs.

The beast army has a slim chance of beating some armies in a rock-paper-scissors style match up, but just like the Ogre Kingdoms list Don's army is just a poor mans version of Bretonians.

That should settle that, I think.

Just wait until you see what I am bringing to the tourney.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  nathanr on Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:34 am

ScottRadom wrote:This could only happen in imagination land. No dwarf player will lose to this army. I will fight this battle 100 times and never lose...

We might as well just hand you the trophy at the start of each league and then everyone can play for second place!

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:59 am

Hey! They might as well hand me my trophy at the beginning of the league and then Scott can get his second place ribbon, or sash or whatever they give to the first loser, and then you guys can just fight for the rest of the spots that don't matter.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:04 am

nathanr wrote:
ScottRadom wrote:This could only happen in imagination land. No dwarf player will lose to this army. I will fight this battle 100 times and never lose...

We might as well just hand you the trophy at the start of each league and then everyone can play for second place!

I agree! Saves some work!

No I seriously think a dwarf army with any concentration of shooting, 3 war machines and 2x10 man units of shooters will have their way with Don's army. Just way to easy to pick on the threatening stuff and absorb the charges.

And Don don't feel insulted when I say the proposed beasts list is a poor man's Bret army. EVERY fast moving hand to hand army is a poor man's Bret army. They just have too much cost effective hitting power. I think for the price of 4 minotaurs you can have 6 (Maybe 8???) knights of the realm that start with the same US, but a banner and a rank as well as 6 ST5 attacks and 5 ST3 attacks as well as a 2+ armor save and the 5/6+ Ward save. and a musician. And a champion for those awkward situation where it's very useful to issue or accept challenges. Ya dig?

If I didn't hate painting the models so much and really only cared about winning then I would Bret it up. I just have never enjoyed painting anything other then Bret peasent models. And they're the worst part of that army fo sho.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  nathanr on Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:43 am

Except that the beastman army has fear and skirmish on their side. My wood elf army is geared toward hand to hand combat and has no armour but I didn't get beat 100/100 times, in fact I think I did quite well in the last league. I wouldn't consider my army a "poor man's bretonnian army" either. I don't have much experience with beastmen but I would imagine they function quite similarly to a wood elf army. I'd say try it out and see which is pretty much the only way to prove Scott wrong!

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:47 am

nathanr wrote:Except that the beastman army has fear and skirmish on their side. My wood elf army is geared toward hand to hand combat and has no armour but I didn't get beat 100/100 times, in fact I think I did quite well in the last league. I wouldn't consider my army a "poor man's bretonnian army" either. I don't have much experience with beastmen but I would imagine they function quite similarly to a wood elf army. I'd say try it out and see which is pretty much the only way to prove Scott wrong!

Don's army is not a skirmish army. It's a run into the other dude and killify him with axes and chariots army.

You're wood elf army is an oddball one, with it's skirmishing, wardancers, treemen etc.

And I am NOT saying Don's army will lose every game it plays, I am saying it wil llose every game it plays against a standard mixed shooty/hth dwarf army. It rock trying to fight paper, or paper trying to fight scissors. Or even scissors trying to fight rock! The run and kill them army that has no armor and is not skirmished can't stand up to modest shooting, and won't have enough to break Ld9/10 troops with a BSB.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  nathanr on Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:06 pm

I see what you are saying, Don's army probably does function more as an Ogre Kingdoms army than a wood elf army. I still think it would be an interesting army to try for a tournament, just for something different. There are ways to get around shooting (maximise targets using many small units, use cover, etc.) but against high shooting and high magic it will be a very tough fight since you don't have any armour. It forces you to play smart which is hard to do when your army is geared toward "run straight at the guys you want to kill and hit them with an axe". I still say try it out though!

P.S. for more fuel for Scott's ranting see my Bretonnian army list that I posted in the army list section! I call it the middle-class-man's bretonnian army.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  squalie on Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:40 pm

[quote]Don's army is not a skirmish army. It's a run into the other dude and killify him with axes and chariots army. [quote]

This is very, very true. I'm not offended at all Scott, I know exactly what you're trying to say.. I'm just messin' with ya'. There is no doubt in my mind that there will be some interesting moments with this army, and it doesn't have gold medal potential at all. I've just had these stupid Mino's sitting around forever, always wanted to play a Mino army and if it gets me off my ass to paint -- then it's almost worth it. It'll look cool on the table, if I can get them finished, and if not then it's the regular Beast army. You know, the red-headed stepchild of Warhammer.

Now, if you'll excuse me I have 8 Mino's, a Doombull and 2 Chaos Spawn to paint by the 27th. Scott, what're you doing for the next week?

Have you ever had 4 fast moving, 360 degree Spawn rushing your warmachines? It can be annoying and effective as hell considering Beasts don't have any fliers. You're right gimicky as all hell. I guess if it gets absolutely raped on Saturday, then maybe I'll go back to basics for Sunday.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  ScottRadom on Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:51 pm

Have I ever had 4 spawn rush warmachines? Probably not. but then if they are rushing my warmachines they'll probably have to get through a missile screen unit or two first. And then there's the 300+ point cost of the spawn.

I don't want to come off as completely dead set against Don't army idea. And it'd work great against some armies. SPeciafically I think it'd work GREAT against my typical O&G army list. If a unit of minoataurs and a chariot hit a unit of even nmy best boyz and beat them by a point or three, that's it for them.

But as I say it's a rock-paper-scissors style list. Which is more the direction I think my future O&G lists will wind up taking as well, 'cause if nothing those kind of lists can be FUN!

Now I am off to mouth-rape Nathan's Bret list.

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

Post  Carson on Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:37 pm

I think we should post up lists more often so that we can rip into them. Very Happy

Its def. a rock paper list. will work great against some armies and suck balls against others but Don's right it will look cool and be fun to play.....some of time!

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Re: Magic? We don't need no stinking magic.

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