Tournament rambling

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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Carson on Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:31 pm

This is the kind of discussion we need to put into our tournaments. I think we should hold off on picking a date yet as I donít want to keep running this without the club.

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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  squalie on Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:17 pm

Ok, everyone's dipping their toe in but no one is jumping in the pool - so here I go!

Preface: You are all my friends. I have no doubt I have offended you in the past and believe it or not - you've probably offended me. But it's cool, as friends shrug the little stuff off and try to look at the bigger picture. My intention here is to NOT offend, but these topics are very subjective, competitive and feelings can get hurt. I'm sorry in advance - but we're still friends and you can stay at my house anytime.

I have things to say about the event, even when the idea was first brought up. It seemed like a group thing at first, then someone took the ball and ran with it (which shows initiative - that's cool) but nothing was ever slapped down as official either way, so no-one knew where they stood. A few here will never talk out as it's not their personality, and I respect that - but if you have an opinion, you should really state that opinion (read the preface). If you are part of the Horde, you have a duty to proclaim and defend your opinion. Dramatic I know, but it's true.

1. Is this a group thing or is one man running the event?

I feel we should have a committee, or group that puts this event together. One person in charge of T.O., one in charge of food, one in charge of venue, website, prizes, etc. I'm not even saying exactly like that, but we vote or nominate, we get responsibilities and then do those and we all get a say (vote) in what happens. If we agree it's just one guy, then even if it's ran like shit we gave up our right to say anything and we shut up, show up and game.

2. Is it PLAINS WAR, or WAR on the PLAINS? Our site is called Plains War but event items were WotP, and it's obvious different opinions interjected here (see point 1.). We should vote.

3. When did we decide on a date? Who conferred and agreed Mid/Late Sept? With Onslaught later in Oct that's only a few weeks, we really should push for latest Aug or earliest Sept. We have a Ravening Hordes group with many opinions and voices (sometimes). Wink

4. Take backsies on the rules or turns. I don't THINK I did that? If I did, then I go to the penalty box and feel shame - this is something I reeeaally want us to get better at and super sorry if I did it. Flat dice, on the table, no exceptions, etc, etc. This was our first 2.0 event so maybe some glitches happened because of that.

4.Event - food/venue/prizes. It's awesome that we provide lunch for attendees but our goal is not to profit from the food. It's a convenience so guys stay and don't start games late. What if we charge $50 and give them a food ticket? Then they can eat/drink what they want and not have to worry about cash - as a few didn't have at the event. If there was profit on the food - where did it go? Is it an organizer profit, or does it go to Ravening Hordes? We should run full transparency.

I have read a few threads in the past, on other forums, about other events and guys ask for transparency for costs and entry fees. People out there get feisty if they feel an event is ran with profit in mind. Considering we only pay $100 for the Church (unbelievable) that should give us some wiggle room with prizes and food. How awesome does an event sound if it's free food and great prizes? It sounds awesome, just like I said. If we want guys to drive 6 hours, we should take care of them. Charging for food happens when you have to pay $1500 - $2500 for a hall. What if we get 30 guys and only paying $100 for a hall? There's obviously enough left over for free food.

5. Event scoring:

a) Sportsmen. Holy cow, do we have a miscommunication about how this score works. I feel (and told others) that a 1-5 scale doesn't work that well with friends and gamers that you'll see next weekend or invite into your home. You're pretty reluctant to give a friend a 1-2, so settle on 3. Generally you'll see 3-4 (as you should), and only 5's if someone has a bro moment. 5's should be exceedingly rare and that game is something everyone else in the room will hear and stop to watch. You realize that most of our home games are a solid 3, and only sometimes a 4? Anyone getting 1's should be warned on the first and evicted from the event on the second. AND before that, if you've got a 1 - the T.O. should be pulling each person aside and asking what happened as I doubt it's simply because they got "stomped". That's delusional - I don't think anyone in this group would give a 1 simply over a bitter loss, something else is at work there. The 1-5 system is super flawed unless it's for a 50 man event and I've said this every single time we talk about this. I still insist on the Australian system with a basic ranking of 1-3 after the event. You favourite game down to your least fave. They were all good? Too bad - rank them and the person getting the most first choices wins. You have some time to remove the emotion of a bad beat or settle down after a bro moment and really think about the games you had. There can be only one.

b) Best general . Obvious...crush skulls, take trophy, scare kids.

c) Painting! I said it at the event and I'll say it here - there is NO way you should win best painted on someone else's painted army. It takes a little skill, a bit of practise and a TON of time and work to put an army on the table hoping for best painted. There's an embarrassing amount of pride that comes with winning best painted. I agree with previous statements here; there's absolutely nothing wrong with buying a painted army if you don't like to paint. Totally cool and I get that, but you shouldn't be able to buy a trophy. How much you spent is immaterial - you simply can't be rewarded for work you didn't do.

I super agree with Kieran and it really sums it up. Want best General? play better. Best painted? Paint better. Best Sportsmen? Don't be Geoff. (Bwahahahaha) I kid!!! but that number does need explaining...and it would have been best done at the tourney, not when results were posted. I had a few people mention to me some disappointing things that happened during their games about a few people - don't tell me, tell your opponent. If you won't call your opponent out for poor play because you're either non-confrontational or worried about sportsmen, you literally can't say a word about it afterwards. If you give your opponent a 1 or 2, you should be able to look them in the eye and explain why. If they literally don't know why they scored so low - that's a symptom of other things.

I'll save some more for later, but if you are part of the Ravening Hordes league, or plan to attend events, you really should post and let everyone know how you feel. we're trying to make this an attractive event for new people
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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Carson on Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:50 pm

Thanks for posting Don. That pretty much sums up what we should be about and what we need to do going forward. I think we can all agree that another event should happen this year. To make that happen I believe we should jump on this and start planning.

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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Kuyp on Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:59 pm

All three games of mine were good, and I personally tried to stick to the criteria listed. I would love for don, Nathan and petter to tell me how they felt the games were any issues no matter how small. The sportsmanship score to me is a ways a bit strange and almost needs a completely new and radical approach. I'm not sure what that would be yet.

Also I don't really care either way if it's a committee or just one guy. To many cooks in the kitchen can cause it's own problem. Also I vote for war on the plains , I just like the sound better 😁



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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  GeoffKlassen on Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:17 pm

I still don't know what the score was about I had no real issues with all three opponents yes I had not played 2.0 yet so had to learn the nuances. I relented quickly on any disagreements I under measured every move and greeted and joked with all three opponents so I still have no clue about the score. A one means we had a huge fight and are never gonna talk again type of score and never did I feel any issues were that serious. The only real disagreement I had was with Sean who cast a spell in the magic phase then wanted to go back to the movement phase and I sad no too late. He got grumpy after that and I understand but I left units un-moved 3-4 times in the tournament cause I forgot to move them.

I've spent the last three days pretty offended by that score where I gave my opponents 3's and 4's so I thought the games were good. Once again if I offended you sorry.
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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Mhael on Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:39 am

Here is my meltdown.

1. Several opportunities were given for people to step up. I will not coerce or drag people in to be involved. Simply NOONE stepped up so Carson and I did (also Nathan when he didnt have family obligations). There are a few threads on this and discussing other aspects of the tournament as well as several conversations had at basement gaming events which led to alot of head nodding and nothing else.

2. The name War on the Plains was put up for a club recommendation and no one else disputed the suggestion (thanks Dwayne for the submittal). Any instances of 'plains war' were only meant as first stage working title and should have been changed. The trophies were etched bc the trophy makers suggested it flowed better ( what I was told); we paid them put the right name on it...

3. As posted above I already spoke with several Alberta organizers that felt mid september would be a best fit for maximum travellers from their clubs and when looked at the time line posted by Doug Lamb (thanks for your effort and creation Doug) this date works well in conjunction with other events.

4. T.o.s watched several games. Still things not being done correctly 1" spacing, wheel distances, bad measuring techniques (aka moving units in complicated manner before discussing and not being able to 100% replace to original spot), back phasing, touching opponents models thus changing position/distance(not always by accidental measure complications).

5. Event With Carson potentially being tied up to equalize the player numbers I was not going to have time to tackle food challenges. I subbed this to my wife to take care of who put her own money forth, paid for an extra helper, gas and time to prepare. There was a substantial loss (although i now have snacks and being honest this money came out if my pocket). It was posted on the wix site about food prior to the event (bring money) some didnt even know the event cost

6. I had to almost pull teeth to get people to submit money and lists. At any event i have attended when these are asked for and not at least duscussed with to's about being late you simply are not part of the tourny( this was very frustrating but thanks to those that complied). The money is then used to purchase prizes, location etc otherwise this money comes out of pocket until paid back.

7. I realize sportsmanship and painting need work. I tjink Carson and I did well even double scoring a few armies then comparing notes. Even being objective by not scoring armies that was your own work (Carson had units in Derek/josh/phils armies) The subjective sportsman score I apologize. I meant to add additional conditions on scoring 1's and 5's I forgot. I do like Geoffs idea about objective score and maybe one point for personal score (thumbs up or down)

In all if you have read this far most of you know me to be hard-headed ( I am an asshole and I am fine with it) I don't apologize for hurt feelings, get over yourselves, opportunities were given to all. Alot of work went in to this event which I dont do for my own glorification. I hace spent considerable time and effort the past year promoting our game at other venues and in large am glad to see the resurgence of our hobby. However running this event has left a bitter discord in me and I may melt my dice down and focus on the things that I enjoy.
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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  nathanr on Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:31 am

Maybe it's just my personality but I didn't have much issue with the way the tournament was planned. In my experience planning by committee only gets you so far and often gets you nowhere at all. It inevitably ends up falling to a few individuals to get things done and I think that is what happened. What I'm hearing is that Don didn't like the name and would have liked to be included a little more. Andre is understandably defensive of all the time and effort he put into putting on a successful event and Carson is trying to appease both sides. Now, let's get past that and look at how to improve.

I don't think anyone needs to do anything as drastic as melting down their dice (Andre) but there are some great opinions in this thread that shouldn't be dismissed. I don't think anyone is attacking how this was run but rather trying to make the next event that much better. Now all this is coming from someone who wasn't there. Obviously if I were there it would have gone 110% smoother just because of my presence but we can't help that now.

I don't think Don is out to lunch to ask for transparency when it comes to tournament costs (see what I did there?). Especially if the next one is "Ravening Hordes" and not Andre and Carson then the cost needs to be shared by the group and ultimately the books should balance out to zero. If the tournament was run at a loss then that loss should be shared by the group rather than one or two people. If there is a surplus then that money can be put back into prizes or free food for the participants or gas money for the out of towners or something.

As for the fair play and sportsmanship, I don't know what to say about that. We are all guilty of sloppy measurements from time to time, getting caught up in the moment often means things are forgotten about. I think a better-defined sportsmanship score which asks specific questions like "was your opponent's movement precise?" and "did your opponent roll dice properly (cocked dice rerolled consistently, roll so everything was visible, no 'roll and scoop' etc.)?" would go a long way to ensuring that everyone is aware of what is expected and police their own games. As for bumping and accidentally moving models, that happens. I guess try to be more vigilant?

We've discussed at length the painting/hobby scores, you know my opinion and there are some good suggestions already made in this thread so I'm not going to go into it any more.

Lastly, I think it is always going to be a struggle to get some people to pay and submit army lists promptly. It's shitty and possibly the worst part of being a tournament organizer. I don't know if it is possible to eliminate this unless we have a waiting list of people wanting to attend. Then you can simply bump the deadbeats in favour of someone who actually wants to be there enough to pay and follow simple directions like getting their army list in on time. I guess the moral of the story is to make this event so good that it is a must-attend sell-out event.
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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Kal on Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:13 am

Ok I got to this post to late and now there are lots of words so Iím just going to go ahead with my normal unpaced ranting and you guys can figure it out. Very Happy

First off, I think the event was a ton of fun and from what I read here I donít feel that anyone was taking a personal dig at the T.Oís or anything specific about the event. I thought this thread was here to make improvements for the next event based off what we learnt about the last event. Not to poke holes in the last event, as it is in the past and was a great time and a good learning tool, so try not to get offended guys. I personally donít care who organizes anything as Iím lazy and being in Moose Jaw does not help things, that being said if it is going to be a committee or if we would like so actual input from everyone I say that we actually start using this forums ability to creates ďPollsĒ if we put out a concrete poll that you canít change your answers. We will have ONE location that will have black and white answers. When is it *check the poll* how many points *check the poll* and if only one person votes on a Poll fuck it then we can ALL easily see that and have no one to blame. On that note as well can we PLEASE start changing Titles and the Starting Post of threads to contain all the information, Iím sure it makes things difficult having to flip through 6 pages of posts to find that ONE piece of information. Thats what I gotta say about that

Secondly I REALLY like the Australian way of ranking , the 1-3. Whoever your best game was against gets a 1, doesnít matter if all three games were edge of your seat AMAZING games, this way you canít have three ď5Ē games or three ď3Ē games you can literally just have a 1-2-3. I think this is the only way we will actually see a swing in the Sportsman Points. That being said I do like Nathan Rís idea of ďwas movement preciseĒ and ďdid they roll the dice properlyĒ etc etc. So idk how to incorporate both but still.

Thirdly, I admit I like Plains War better. Less words is better, Hell if we called it Plainscon or Prairiecon or Saskcon. Idk CON CON. The Conniest of all Conís. CONan the Conathon anyways Iíve lost my train of thought. I am ok with War on the Plains as well so w/e happens happens. I wouldnít not go to event because of the name. And I am good with Mid September, we do have to decide sooner rather than later so we can rent that awesome church again and have even MORE people at this next event. This is so far in the future still that I think any date in Sept could work, arguing different dates seems pointless unless someone has something already long term planned. I think if we have a date we need to STICK TO IT, no changing because something comes up for someone. If you know the date and want to attend and it is your priority you will make it. End of story.

Fourthly. Submitting Lists and paying is a problem, always is. I admit I wasnít great for this, I had sent money to Carson via Etransfer but we fucked it up cause we good like that and it was so close to the event I figured Id just pay in person. As for the list thing again I was late on sending mine in (but atleast I did) but I think the main reason for this was the switch from 1.3 to 2.0 I had no idea what a list would look like for 2.0 as I hadnít had a game yet. On that note once my list was in I stuck with it even after finding some terrible flaws that I had wished to remedy, I decided to stick to my guns and play the list I submitted. But while I was at the tourney I overheard a couple people saying they had made changes to their lists the night before etc etc. So I was like WAHHH. But again no big deal as with 2.0 I had no clue what anyone elses lists would look like anyways.

Lastly. Just to sum up everything missed elsewhere. The money thing, Iím terrible with money and numbers so it really didnít click with me about how much things cost so I donít have much to say there. The transparency for money would be nice I think, not that we think or thought we were cheated at all, $40 for a good day of Warhammer in our own hall is awesome. I will say I felt bad for some people who did not have cash for lunch, I did not think of brining extra cash either but wasnít a big deal (I hate beans) On that note, if we do this in September it will be much easier / nicer to run a couple blocks to an ATM when it isnít cold as fuck out. Wow Kieran made some awesome points about the painting and paying someone to play for you. So I think that solves that right there. BAM, I agree it should be your paint job if your going to win the army, hell maybe make more of a show of the Painting Challenge. I understand there are time restrictions but maybe line up every army and have everyone vote, I liked that there was an ďhonourableĒ mention for the armies that almost Won. The Golden Daemon idea is cool. Having a whole army looking amazing idk if Iíll ever get there but if I could put a TON of extra time on my General and have him looking super fly and win a prize would be cool. Anyways Iím done rambling.

TLDR: I had a blast and definitely would do it again. Iíve been in full Warhammer Mode since the event. Had a game with Brian, painted some skeletons, built a bone giant. Fixed some magic cards. Started painting my amazing Turn Counter which I love. (altho with the new magic system it almost counts the turns for you with the cards but still) So lets all be friends and not get offended by any comments here. No Dice Melting MMK?
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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Carson on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:53 am

Its a very tight rope to walk as a tournament organizer. I made a shit load of mistakes in past tournaments that I ran......and I still get reminded of them years later. After the dust has settled though I'm glad that Andre and myself jumped ahead and got the ball rolling. You definitely have to have "the man in charge" at the end of the day but its best as a club if all the details are agreed upon by the club and then organized by the T.O. We can move forward from Here.

I really believe that we have the resources and ability to make Saskatoon a "must go to" destination in the city.

On a side not, How great were the table and terrain. I felt every table looked good and was quite functional for game play. The one issue I saw was that some of the tree stands need to be rebased to allow tree removal for game play. I'm going to have that remedied in the next little while.

I'm going to address Geoff's issue with sportsmanship. First up, No matter what people say out loud, everyone's sportsmanship is affected by the army one brings. Bluntly, your army was a gun brought to a knife fight. This is perfectly fine, nothing wrong with it, but your a veteran. You know it will hurt you. Second, you've played this game a long time, your play is sloppy and can easily look gamey and at worst abusive. Just clean up your play, know the rules and your army much better! In a tournament, everyone should play for your opponent as much as for yourself. You will notice a big difference in the atmosphere around you.

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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  squalie on Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:48 pm

Well, as always Iíve stirred the pot and hurt feelings. My post was not an attack on Andre or the event. I simply havenít learned yet to keep my mouth shut, so thatís where Iíll end it. Smile

Anyways, glad the event happened and I understand how much work goes into it.

Peace out.
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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  nathanr on Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:08 pm

On a different note, did anyone grab my mat and bin of terrain? I wouldnít mind playing a game next week but no terrain makes it tough.
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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Carson on Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:42 pm

I have it Nathan.

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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Derek on Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:20 pm

Hey All,

I feel compelled to add a few comments to this discussions.

First off I want to say great tourney guys, we got some poor turnout, some horrible weather and lets be honest it seems that most of Alberta dismissed the event even after it was altered to accommodate some Alberta concerns. Despite these issues I had fun, yes I was really sick and I still am and I guess it didnt look like I was having fun - I have just now ventured online. Strep Throat...sorry guys. It was a blast and as a guy that loves the game and playing its where I wanted to be....thanks for putting it together Carson and Andre and thank all you other guys for showing up and putting up with me Shocked Very Happy

I have played in lots and lots of tournaments and organized many many tournaments. There will always be some things to overcome, this event had a few issues and I do know that Andre and Carson realized them early on but they carried on and made the best of things and I say they did an excellent job.

Touching on some of the hot button topics I will try to be brief.
Sportsmanship - two systems have been put forth, they both have merits and I have used them both. You can have 3 fun games and not play against three fun opponents and this has to be reflected in sportsmanship. Really slow play, due to illness (I tired not to be slow and I played poorly lol) or smoke breaks??? or moving units after they have been moved or being a super serious unfun to play kinda guy or any thing really....these have to be accounted for. I have played in tournaments when 4 out of 5 of my opponents were awesome, fun, knew their shit, we laughed etc...and it crazy hard to give everyone an individual score....So much involved here....they both work but I lean towards a detailed score. Cause and Effect. But this must be left to the TO to decide his preference.

Painting...should be Army Presentation and for you older players out there you will recall how in the tournament heydays a presentation board and some fluff were required to excel in this category. I totally disagree with Kieran and Nathan and Don. If someone has a crazy looking army like Don's TK and it constantly wins...then so be it. Some one has to man up and out wow the judges. There was a time whenever we went to a tourney Carson's Army would wow and he would win, it seems that tastes have change even though I think Carsons stuff is amazing. Oh well that is how it goes. This was the first time I ever took an army to a tourney that was not mine. For most hobbyists it is not how many hundreds of hours you spend converting or painting or mastering one of a dozen techniques its having a army that looks cool and is all painted and based and has a few standout models or units. Kieran you are an artist, but that did not come over night, you started 20+ years ago like me, and I think your examples of tacticians playing for you etc...well those are simply overboard. Golden Daemon Awards well....you need to be a much larger event to justify these types of extra awards.

Army List and Early payment....most tournaments provide a Army List Bonus of 10-15 pts when these are submitted early - say a week or so, this has been around for a long time, simple fix there.

The name does have to be firm....I personally dont care what it is...you just want to build name recognition for out of town players.

Food issue...well done but not required. I would have bought some pop and minor things and sold them at the TO table. Dont get me wrong Andre I loved the Chili idea, and I bought muffins and drinks Very Happy , but again supplying food is normally only when its a much larger event - that way every one can stay together.

I dont like the idea of a tournament by committee. Only as I have tried this in the past and inevitably some areas fall apart and others have to pick up the slack and then people have hard feelings. And the endless meetings...ugh. But if it a committee transparency with financials is key and the venture is not intended to be moneymaking in anyway. I have ran tournaments in the past where I walked away with an extra $40 in my pocket ans I have run events where I have lost $100....you gotta put them on simply cause you love the game. I think the many door-prizes is an outstanding idea and even if it is a small item ppl like to walk away with something for their efforts. Once again here Carson and Andre did an outstanding job.

Anyway I had fun and I think the event went really well. I do think that some of the issues people are bring up really only pertain to very large events with 40-60 players. But I do luv Carsons attitude and think this tourney can become something special.
I am sorry I was sick and was not a lot louder lol...I am looking forward to some healthier weeks ahead and league play lol

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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:34 pm

I read this because I like to.

Painting scores should be based on the quality of the paint job. A max score should be given to the best and coolest army. If the player didn't paint it themselves then pull them out of the pool of eligibility for the prize. If someone commissions an army that looks ass awesome then it's a benefit for everyone who gets to look at it and play against it. Anything that pushes the quality visual aspect of a mini game is worth encouraging. If you want your army to look better then paint better. Watch YouTube videos you plugs!

Sportsmanship will never be perfect. Back in the day we tried no sports (worked fine at the small local level where we all knew each other) ranking opponents (not ideal as sometimes you have to pick the best from a good bunch or the other way). The ideal solution seemed to be at the beginning of the event when I'd give a little speech on what the 1-5 ranking really meant and told everyone how points should be distributed. You HAVE to give players permission and encouragement to give out 3's. When we did this we always got what seemed to be a better representation of the days events.

Painting scores also should have a player component. Let players submit a "players choice" vote for what they think is the best painted army. I did that a couple times and it helped. It did turn into a bit of a popularity contest once though but it was for a can of spray paint or some such fuckery.

I can maybe help out with a paint thingy at the next one. I might see about joining forces for a blood bowl event on the day or some shit. But I'll be mother fucked if I am EVER doing any kind of organizing in a committee environment again.
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Re: Tournament rambling

Post  Derek on Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:50 pm

Some excellent points Scott.

I had forgotten about the Players Choice aspect and I like it.
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