proposed league changes

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proposed league changes

Post  Carson on Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:26 pm

As the topic states, some upcoming changes to the next league.

1. Game play needs to be tightened up. We have all become a bit sloppy and this change will only make us better players.
......starting with the new league, during movement, a player is not allowed to take movements back, once you move, you have moved, the unit stays where it is. If you block yourself or take a bad facing.....oh well do it better next time.
......if a player misses a phase or forgets to do something.....to fucking bad, don't forget next time.

2. The playoffs will take a slight change.
.......This league is about playing games, lets reward that, not discourage it by worrying about game points percentage.
.......4 playoff spots, top 2 in total points, then top 2 points per game
........minimum 15 games to qualify for playoffs (its a 6 month league!)

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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Nathan.A. on Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:33 pm

Carson wrote: 1. Game play needs to be tightened up. We have all become a bit sloppy and this change will only make us better players.
     ......starting with the new league, during movement, a player is not allowed to take movements back, once you move, you have moved, the unit stays where it is. If you block yourself or take a bad facing.....oh well do it better next time.  

Definitely a culprit for this, I always just assumed it didn't bother people (simply because it doesn't bother me). But that is not a valid justification, so I will follow this strictly from now on. In the end it does make us better players, for sure.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Carson on Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:25 pm

We are all guilty of it, thats why we need to clean it up. Ultimately it will make us much better players.

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Re: proposed league changes

Post  squalie on Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:07 pm

Nathan.A. wrote:
Carson wrote: 1. Game play needs to be tightened up. We have all become a bit sloppy and this change will only make us better players.
     ......starting with the new league, during movement, a player is not allowed to take movements back, once you move, you have moved, the unit stays where it is. If you block yourself or take a bad facing.....oh well do it better next time.  

Definitely a culprit for this, I always just assumed it didn't bother people (simply because it doesn't bother me). But that is not a valid justification, so I will follow this strictly from now on. In the end it does make us better players, for sure.

I wouldn't say you're any more guilty of this than anyone else, so don't beat yourself up.

Even though this doesn't bother me too much, I'll admit that when you move a unit and then move back, there is simply no way that the unit goes back to original starting point. I've done it myself and confident I put the unit back, but my opponent didn't agree. And if someone needs juuuuuust a couple degrees to make that charge this is a clever way to exploit that unit facing.

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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Carson on Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:30 pm

Forgot to post the question......are we sticking to 5000 for league play or dropping to the accepted 4500 pt level?

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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Kuyp on Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:07 pm

I like 4500. List building gets a bit more interesting I find. Not for the less 500 points but what it does for the % values..
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Derek on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:00 pm

Carson wrote:We are all guilty of it, thats why we need to clean it up. Ultimately it will make us much better players.

I totally agree here. In both that everyone is guilty of this at some point even if we don't realize it and in that enforcing this will make us all better players. Tightening up game play in this regard will make the games way more interesting. If you forget something....moving a unit or shooting even, it can be a game changer. Just last week I watched Carson play Pete and Carson forgot for 4 turns to bring his scouts onto the board. We all laughed, but this type of thing can alter a game. Precision movements shouldn't just occur during tournaments either.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Derek on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:06 pm

Carson wrote:Forgot to post the question......are we sticking to 5000 for league play or dropping to the accepted 4500 pt level?

I don't think this is a big issue. I have been in the league for a short time and I have played 4500 and 5000. Either point value is good I think - as long as both players agree on a point value.

What is the point value for large tourneys? What do they play in Alberta? Does T9A officially endorse a point level?

Not that we have to follow Alberta but its nice to be competitive.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  blizzard435 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:15 pm

I like 5k for league games but with tournaments being pushed more, going with lower point games  (4500) will mean that we are always playing on the same level and more used to it. (IE Better at that point level)

I just find going to 4500 requires more optimized lists without some of the fun stuff;  as I said before, I want to play my imperial dragon but struggle to fit it in a 4500 point list.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  blizzard435 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:17 pm

Derek wrote:
What is the point value for large tourneys?  What do they play in Alberta? Does T9A officially endorse a point level?
I think Alberta does 5k leagues, 4500 tournaments. T9A is based (balanced) around 4500.

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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Derek on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:31 pm

Carson wrote:2. The  playoffs will take a slight change.
    .......This league is about playing  games, lets reward that, not discourage it by worrying about game points percentage.
    .......4 playoff spots, top 2 in total points, then top 2 points per game
    ........minimum 15 games to qualify for playoffs (its a 6 month league!)
   

I agree here also. I understand the reason the league playoff format is a % system is due to the potential of some people playing each other too much. Now I don't know if that even happened but all systems can be hacked as it were. What about the potential for people ducking games to keep their % up? Now I am not saying I have ever witnessed any of this, but I know there are always people trying to take advantage of systems so it could happen. To this end I agree we want to encourage people to play and while math is not my area, I was a History major lol, but the more games some one plays then naturally it seems their % will even out and settle lower.
Hopefully my convoluted comments make some sense.
Personally I am a fan of the Ladder system. Wherein you can challenge those above you in the ladder and get points for each battle and the top 2 in the ladder and top 2 in points (with a min number of games played) advance to the playoffs. The min number of games played prevent the top players in the ladder from not playing. That being said the % system combined with the top 2 in points rewards a larger selection of players. With the higher min games (15-18 games played in 5-6 months should not be impossible) the top two in % are showing they are outstanding players and should be in the playoffs. The top 2 in total points with a min games played also rewards participation, enthusiasm and growth of the game and league.

My 2 cents
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  squalie on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:30 pm

So I was pretty suggestive for playing 5000 points in the 4500 vs 5000 point war. Smile  I'm not sure if I've changed my mind about that, but I will say that if pretty much every event is 4500, then maybe our world should be 4500 so we're technically always "practising" for events with our army lists.

 I like 5000 points as it lets me play with more toys, but I like 4500 so I can take less core, lol.  Strangely enough, I'm feeling a comfort zone with 4500 that I didn't think I would.  I always stated that playing 5000 points was pretty much the same as it was generally just one more unit or monster on the table, but it feels different than that during a game.  For 5000 points I just make a list.  For 4500 I find I agonize over decisions, lol.

**edit** I guess the question could be asked: Does anyone feel bothered enough playing 5000 points that we need to change it?
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Kal on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:33 am

Late to this conversation but personally i prefer 4500 points. Its good practice for events and forces us to think about our lists not just keep adding. You should never look at your list and think "How many points do i have to fill" you should be thinking "How many points do i have left". Idk if that makes sense. Oh also though easier for new players to get an army, 500 less points of figs and less core.

I don't mind the ladder system but i think if we are going to go that route we have to do two things, encourage some rivalry to a point, it has to matter/mean more there has to be some animosity against the guy that keeps clawing himself to the top of the ladder. On that note we have to all be a little more ok with friendly competitive smack talk and losing/being picked on if you are sitting ontop of the ladder you are Public Enemy #1 and have to be ok with the target on your back. If its a game for one of the top three spots then a good Battle Report has to be mandatory. Make it a SHOW for everyone, even the people who can't make it to Saskatoon every week. I want to hear the reports of the Saskatoon guy who has defended his ladder spot 5 times in a row, gives me something to look forward to when i visit! On that note maybe we should reward more points for defending your position and taking other positions? Rambling now sorry, done.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  nathanr on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:45 am

Looks like I'm one of the only guys that likes 5000 better. Ok, I'll make the shift. Looks like I've got some list-making to do!

I liked having multiple ways to get to the playoffs, the ladder only works if everyone is playing games otherwise people get stuck below inactive players or they get stuck playing against the same person in an attempt to claw their way up. You almost need to have scheduled games to make it work. That maybe isn't the worst idea either, I find that I don't get to play a lot of people in the league because either our schedules don't match up or when I put out an open request for a game the same person/people are first to respond. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy playing Andre and Derek but I think that I have yet to play a game against Don this league which is crazy because Don has more games played than almost everyone. Actually there are people in the league that I don't think I've even met. Crazy.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  blizzard435 on Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:53 pm

squalie wrote:
 **edit**  I guess the question could be asked:  Does anyone feel bothered enough playing 5000 points that we need to change it?

I like 5000 points and wouldn't be bothered by it.

Nathan R and myself were talking and at 4500 points, it feels that it's more about list optimization and pushing what works and less about playing fun lists. Agonizing over choices should be kept for tournament/play off lists while league games should be kept fun. I find with 4500 points, I have models that will never see a game table.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  nathanr on Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:01 pm

Agree. At 4500 you will never see the more colourful choices like a dwarf lord on the throne, a dragon rider or an avatar of nature. I'd love to field those but there just isn't room for those choices.
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5k vs 4500

Post  Patrick V on Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:03 pm

when i first started playing i was more on board with 4500. now that i got more models to play around with, you guys are right, it is hard to fit the fun stuff in 4500. i am fine going either way but 5k for the league might be more fun. could save min maxing lists for tournaments.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Carson on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:15 pm

Im going to set up a poll for the point level of league games.

Please......everyone who is or is going to be in the league vote....please!

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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Galadros on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:26 am

I have a suggestion that might alleviate all your consternations. Since it is strictly a ‘tournament’, how about you allow players to agree on a point level for each game they play? Set the expectation for pick-up games at 4500, but is there any reason that Dom and Carson can’t play theirs at 5000 if they agree in advance?
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Patrick V on Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:34 pm

Galadros wrote:I have a suggestion that might alleviate all your consternations. Since it is strictly a ‘tournament’, how about you allow players to agree on a point level for each game they play? Set the expectation for pick-up games at 4500, but is there any reason that Dom and Carson can’t play theirs at 5000 if they agree in advance?

this isnt a problem at all. players should be able to play different point value games.
this mindset has inconvenience though. most players have multiple lists they use with their army for one point value. when players are jumping between 5k and 4500 points, thats alot of lists to maintain. on top of this alot of players are using multiple armies. juggling between empire and then skaven and then ogre, ect. it gets out of hand quick. having a league standard is easier to maintain and alot easier to theory craft new lists.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  Carson on Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:39 pm

Yes, league games can be played at any level. We are just trying to nail down the standard size.

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Re: proposed league changes

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:13 pm

Also, since many of our games happen in bunches at game-days and such it is nice to bring one list for the day/weekend and play 3-6 games with it without having to switch up point levels.
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Re: proposed league changes

Post  squalie on Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:28 pm

We did this once before and 5000 points won.

http://raveninghordes.forumakers.com/t2179-point-value-in-9th-poll
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