Maximizing Models Rule

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Maximizing Models Rule

Post  Nathan.A. on Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:21 pm

Hey dudes, just thought I'd post this as it came up this past weekend in a game.

When maximizing number of models in a combat, you maximize the amount of models in base to base with at least one enemy model.

You do not need to maximize the amount of models in base with each model, only the total amount of models in base contact with ONE other model.

I'll give an example: My unit of dread spears which is 5 wide charges a unit of goblins which 8 wide, my dragon princess also charges the goblins. This can result in my dragon going corner to corner with the 8th goblin, and therefore only touching one model, since the other 7 models in the goblin unit are in base to base with the spearmen. This satisfies the maximize charge condition as all the units that could be touching one model are touching at least one model.

Not trying to say I-told-you-so to anyone, just wanted to clarify as it was brought up. Also knowing the rules helps you win more games, I think anyways, and I want someone from our group to win the Onslaught title, maybe this will help?
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  squalie on Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:31 pm

You have Dread spears (DE) and Dragon Princes (HE) in the same army? charging a unit of goblins?
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  Nathan.A. on Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:29 pm

Princess not princes. She is a princess who rides a dragon, therefore a Dragon Princess.
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  squalie on Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:54 pm

Nathan.A. wrote:Princess not princes. She is a princess who rides a dragon, therefore a Dragon Princess.


Ah - my bad.  Haven't looked it up, but you have to get as many models as possible in contact from both sides.  You declare charges, roll charges and if both make it you put them into base contact with as many goblins as both can touch.  All Dreadspears would be put into contact and then the Dragon takes up what's left (Maximizing units). Then, next priority is maximizing models. If you're trying to put your dragon into base contact with one goblin, you are a bad man - and you should stop being a bad man. Wink

 (now looked it up) Page 27 explains, page 30 shows pictures.  You're reference to ONE model assumes a minimum.  

 Am I understanding you correctly?


Last edited by squalie on Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : looked it up!)
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  Nathan.A. on Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:55 pm

The dragon does not need to be in base with more than one model in the scenario mentioned. All the models on both sides are in base-to-base with AT LEAST one model, and therefore meet the maximization criteria.

Page 30 figure b1 shows exactly what I'm talking about, specifically the chariot and difference between b1 and b2.
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  Mhael on Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:02 pm

I dont agree with b at all. If you must maximize models in contact is c not the 'most' right answer. Either way are you describing a flank charge as in the difference in c or all just front charges?
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  Nathan.A. on Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:36 pm

There is no most right way to maximize models, either conditions are met and it is right or they are not met and it is wrong.

The chariot does not need to touch two models in the flank because the second model it MAY touch is already in combat with a different model, as shown in the difference between b1 and b2.
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  Mhael on Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:05 pm

Nathan A after looking at the diagrams again i dont believe you choose whichever one you want. Its a process of how the order is accomplished with the last one being the final completion of the process wherein you would move the flank chariot over as depicted.
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  squalie on Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:32 am

I think what may be getting lost here are the priorities and minimums required. What's also getting lost is the sentence that states "at least" one model in contact. That's in the context of the paragraph as there could be 3, 4, 5 units (or more) charging one unit in more than one facing. Before even moving the units, a little foresight is required to see what goes where.

Then the priorities come into check; with it ultimately requiring that all UNITS (on both sides) are maximized and then once it's been made certain what units get in and what may fail a charge as a result of not fitting, then all MODELS (on both sides - and this is the important part) be maximized. The diagrams are a little confusing as they show two slightly different diagrams with the same text. That's just showing the priority of max UNITS fulfilled and then max MODELS fulfilled. It doesn't state that a unit needs only touch one model. it clearly states at LEAST one model and says so as it's referring to the fact many, many units, with rank and file, may end up in base contact. It's very disingenuous to assume that a large monster base need only touch the corner of one Goblin and that that would fulfill it's requirement for maximizing. I'm hoping we all remember that we're playing a game first and intent is often inferred in the rules even though we might not want it as it may get our Dragon killed.

Hey, this is a passionate game and it's more fun winning than losing, but we should play fair first to make sure we all keep playing and having fun. No one wants to be that guy picking apart sentences to gain a slight advantage at the risk of alienating comrades.

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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  Nathan.A. on Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:31 pm

Okay, I'll attempt this one more time. Here is the 4th priority directly quoted from the rules:
."- 4th priority: The number of models (on both sides) in base contact with at least one enemy model is
maximized (including models Fighting Over Gaps)."

When it says models must touch at least one model, it means they must touch at least one model. It no where says if they can touch more than one that they must touch more than one. This in a inference that is being made, not one that is stated anywhere in the rules. This is also not the intention of the rule, as the difference between figure b1 and b2 shows that the chariot MAY touch both the models in the flank, OR only one model in the flank, both are equally legal and valid ways to complete the same charge due to the fact that the second model it may touch is already in base contact with "at least one enemy model".

It's also important to remember that there is NOTHING wrong with a person choosing within the rules how to complete their charges, as large advantages to combat, as well as potential charges and overruns can be gained from doing so.

squalie wrote: It's very disingenuous to assume that a large monster base need only touch the corner of one Goblin and that that would fulfill it's requirement for maximizing.  I'm hoping we all remember that we're playing a game first and intent is often inferred in the rules even though we might not want it as it may get our Dragon killed.

 Hey, this is a passionate game and it's more fun winning than losing, but we should play fair first to make sure we all keep playing and having fun.  No one wants to be that guy picking apart sentences to gain a slight advantage at the risk of alienating comrades.

 

The dragon's ability to touch only one model is completely dependent on the other units ability to contact EVERY OTHER enemy model in the combat, if the dragon was solo charging it would have to maximize enemy models (4), because the other 3 are not already in base contact with anything. It is not disingenuous at all to follow the rules as written, and in this case as intended, when it gives you an advantage, a person SHOULD do this every time they are able. We play to win the game, setting up charges in a way that benefits you is ABSOLUTELY something you should be using to win games.

I'm fairly annoyed you think I would "pick apart a sentence" to find an advantage. I'm foremost concerned with learning all the rules, that is why I mentioned this. If I wanted to "pick apart a sentence to gain a slight advantage" I would not have shared this with the rest of the group. I want us all to know the rules as best we can, as it results in less arguments and an overall better gaming experience.

I hope I didn't make enemies, that was obviously not my intention.

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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  squalie on Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:50 pm


I'm fairly annoyed you think I would "pick apart a sentence" to find an advantage.

That's kinda what I said, but not really what I meant in regards to you personally. I don't think you do that, I was speaking generally even though using you as an example (don't worry, I confuse myself). My candor gets the best of me most of the time, but I AM talking about individuals and rules arguments that someone has over something that seems "gamey" or not in the spirit of the rules or intentions.

You certainly didn't make enemies, and these things SHOULD be brought up.. If this was all it took to make enemies, then we're all in big trouble. Wink I'm actually going to walk away from this thread as I'd like to talk more in person about it as it's coming off different than I wanted. The last thing I want is to jeapordize any relationship I have with anyone here over a rules dispute. It's obvious as most won't touch these threads with a 10 foot pole, but I don't seem to be that smart. Wink

Peace out!

**edit**

I reread the whole section very thoroughly and now see what Nathan A is referring to. It seems legit! I'm not comfortable with it, but it is what it is...
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  nathanr on Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:38 pm

Nathan A has it right I think. Not the way we've really been playing it in our group but I'd be willing to bet we do a lot of things not quite to the letter of the law. This is exactly why I never do well at onslaught (well one of the many reasons). I don't think of these types of things.
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Re: Maximizing Models Rule

Post  Nathan.A. on Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:42 am

PHEW! I'm glad we can all still be friends Very Happy

But in all seriousness I admit I wasn't sure how this was all going to SOUND as people read it. Internet conversations can be very difficult to interpret properly as things like tone have to be inferred, face to face discussions are always more effective and rarely lead to the same amount of misunderstandings, on all parts (myself included).

I think I will continue, cautiously, to reveal rules that may not be exactly how they seem. The game right now is in a state where, I think, very few rules are functioning not as intended, but there are some that do seem to still exist. One example of such an argument:
- The effect that the GGI in the OG book gives off is NOT a special rule. The argument for this is that the names of the effects are NOT specifically listed in the list of special rules, but are listed and described in the same sentence just BELOW the list of special rules(but again, not on the list). To further clarify that this is different one needs to look at trolls, specifically the troll vomit rule. This rule is in the Special Rules list, then also defined underneath in a different section.

This might however have been a mistake. If a person looks at the wasteland trolls entry in the WotDG book their vomit is NOT listed in their special rules, but is listed and defined in the same way as the GGI "effects". It doesn't make sense to me that they would want one set of trolls to be one way and a different set to be a different way, when talking about the same thing(troll vomit).

P.S. I did not figure this out, it came from watching battle reports and interacting with youtubers.
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