Another Rule I had Wrong

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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Nathan.A. on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:06 pm

Not sure exactly what the scoring problem was at Onslaught but I gather people close to the organizer place artificially high? Or at least what would appear as such from our perspective?

As far as the rest of the stuff I definitely agree. The rules exist for the game to be played within them, knowing all the rules and using them in obscure (but legal) ways is what I would consider "mastery" of the subject matter. The better we all know the rules, and the potential outcomes of them, the more enjoyable the game becomes (because no surprises mid game), and the better we all get at the game, aka we win Onslaught, woop woop!

I also don't think anyone should feel bad about bringing a list that they feel is "too hard" but like Don says, and I totally agree, it's all about attitude. So don't bring a super hard deathstar list and then complain like a baby when your opponent avoids it all game and beats you, that's having a bad attitude (just an easy example). The way you play the game is everything, everyone wins, everyone loses, how you handle it shows your quality (just watched LoTR Two Towers last night, hence the vocab choice).

P.S. I don't really think that "net lists" really a thing currently as t9a has done a really good job balancing the game. I do think that some armies are DEFINITELY going to have a hard time with others, just based on the rock-paper-scissors that can happen between different unit types.

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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  squalie on Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:04 am

Kuyp wrote:I am all for competitive play, that said I don't believe in having to change our lists at the core to do so. That just starts to feel like the 40k syndrome doesn't it ?

Not sure if I'm misreading this, but in a nutshell I'm just saying we should bring hard lists to events (not necessarily basement games) but practise the rules precisely. Personally, I'd like to be very clear and clean with my movement and have my opponent notice as such. I often over explain my movement at an event, which I'm sure is annoying, but I don't want to look up and see the WTF look on his face. Smile
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  nathanr on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:17 am

Hijacking this thread,

Something that happened in Dom and my game last night that didn't quite sit right with me was the way his wraiths killed my grail knights in one shot by moving forward into them and then backing up. I looked it up this morning and on page 32 under "Advance Move" it says:

"When performing an Advance Move, a unit can move forward, backwards or to either side (sidestep). However it cannot move in more than one of these directions during an Advance Move."

Now, Dom's wraiths are light troops which get to "make any number of Reforms when moving in the Remaining Moves subphase" so I suppose it could be argued that the wraiths moved forward up to my grail knights, reformed through them, moved forward back out of them and then reformed to face them again.

What do you all think? To be honest, now that I read the rules I think the wraiths' sweeping attack needs to be toned down but that Dom is probably playing it correctly. I'm probably still too emotional after seeing the pride of Equitaine cut down so quickly and easily.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  squalie on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:59 am

Based on the 2 rules you posted, a unit can make any number of reforms in a single direction. I agree with the criticism about the wraiths. They seem so powerful with the “lean forward and back” movement.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Kuyp on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:04 am

Lol I think EVERYONE has had the same reaction to getting hit by the wraiths Nathan.

And yes it the moved on to them, reformed to face the other direction, move an inch away from the unit, then simply reform to face back toward the knights. The sweeping attack is measured from the point the unit starts it move, to the point of contact and then to the final position of the unit after contact, making sure the unit still does not move more then its permitted value. With 12 inch range if you are close enough the unit will do just that.

I honestly don't think it needs to be toned down at all. It's not much different then having to remove a unit form a spell, ranged attack, or even a combat block that just wipes you out before you get to swing.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  nathanr on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:37 am

It is the AP(6) that does it for me. On a 10-man unit that is incredibly strong as there is no defense against it. If they either toned down the AP (even S5 AP(1) would be good) or took away light troops I'd be on board.

Anyway, I can complain all I like but it won't bring those grail knights back.

For sake of completeness, the sweeping attack rule says "When a model performs a Sweeping Attack, the distance moved is counted from its starting position to the point on the battlefield where it performed the attack, and then to its final position."

I'm sure that Dom did this correctly in our game but as the previous posts in this thread are emphasizing accurate movement and measurements I think it is a good idea to remember that in order for the wraiths to do what was intended the measurements should be taken from the rear rank as they will be moving the furthest. The unit moves forward until it comes into contact with the enemy unit at which point it reforms (so the back rank is now in contact with the enemy unit). Then it moves forward back in the direction it came from so that the back rank is 1" away from the enemy unit. It then reforms to face the enemy unit so the back rank again moves to the furthest point away from the enemy unit. Therefore you've got to add 40mm to whatever the front rank is moving to account for the reforms. That's a little over 1.5" that often gets lost or forgotten about in the reshuffling that goes on with light troops and fast cavalry's "free" reforms.

I don't want it to sound as though I'm accusing Dom of anything. I just loved those grail knights and to see them die so quickly was pretty devastating to me. Crying or Very sad

All this emphasis on accurate movement is one of the reasons I haven't played my dark elf army in a while. It is so easy to excuse the little liberties in movement with "they're fast cavalry so they can do that" and if you make the conscious effort to be accurate and actually have to think that hard about every movement it gets overwhelming.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Mhael on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 am

I agree ap6 is too much. We should probably take Dom's wraiths away from him and see how etheral they are against a blowtorch. It sucks but i think Dom has it right as long as he follows the movement distance. That being said the more people are aware of them they will figure out ways to deal with them.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Kuyp on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:30 pm

Mhael wrote:That being said the more people are aware of them they will figure out ways to deal with them.

Lol you mean like a D6 magic missle ? Bow fire still kills them, you probably would still fire at a 1+ as knight unit in hopes to peal off a wound, they are not much different.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Carson on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:51 pm

Wraiths are incredibly good....until you charge them with anything or magic them or shoot them,  etc.
If they are given free reign they will chew you up.

And yes, movement needs to be done properly.....speaking as much to myself as anyone else. Things are too easy to let slide because we just want something to work that way.

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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Nathan.A. on Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:51 am

Yeah the wraiths are really nasty if you don't have magic missiles or any magic shooting.

I personally think all they need to do is re-cost it and make it an attack that needs to roll to hit. The fact it's an auto hit is what strikes me as making the least amount of sense, if they walk through you they hit you easier than if they're fighting you? Just my two cents.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Mhael on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:15 am

Trying to change up my ogre character. If i take a magic weapon classes as a type ironfist can i still spend points to buy a magical weapon for the other arm?
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Mhael on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:42 am

Think i answered my own question. It is still under the magical weapon category therefore only allowed one type
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Kal on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:15 pm

I think it has more to do with the fact that Iron Fists are "Paired Weapons"
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Mhael on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:33 pm

Nope it is plainly written at the start of the magic weapons that you are only allowed one type from each category. The magic iron fist i was going to take is listed in the ok book under magic weapons. I just needed to read all the words not skip past to what i wanted.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  nathanr on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:11 pm

You’re both right. Andre you can only take one magic weapon but if you take the magic iron fist it has the weapon type paired weapons which means that on top of the magical benefits you also get +1 attack and +1 initiative.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Mhael on Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:44 am

Trying to decide if a rock auroch is my answer. When i read through the rules for impacts it is 3d3 (avg 9) at agi 10, hits so need to roll against off still? Then I use beast strength of 6 ap 3...due to devastating charge and living avalanche its a cumulative bonus of +2 str, +2 ap. These are considered close combat attacks from what I read so then can I also apply my battle focus rule to natural sixes, this seems like alot but the model is expensive.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  nathanr on Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:55 am

Impact hits happen at agility 10 (so first or at least simultaneously with other Agi 10 things). Your 3D3 is how many hits you get (just like normal impact hits) so you only need to roll to wound. Battle focus won't come into play as you don't roll to hit. Average for 3D3 is 6. Maximum is 9, minimum is 3. Pretty decent for impact hits as most people's max is 7 and min is 2.

Might as well give it a try, what have you got to lose?
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  squalie on Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:02 am

I loved the Rock Auroch. It's easy combat res and I combo charged with it, parked it on the corner all nice and tidy. A lot of damage this critter causes.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Nathan.A. on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:43 pm

I'm not 100% sure but unless they changed it special rules don't affect special attacks, which would mean no battle focus and no + strength from special rules for impacts.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  PeterW on Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:26 pm

Special Attacks cannot be affected by Attack Attributes unless otherwise stated (The only time I've seen being Magical Attacks) so the Battle Focus would not fly but the strength bonus would as it is not an attack attribute.
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Re: Another Rule I had Wrong

Post  Mhael on Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:53 am

The strength bonuses are specifically for impacts...living avalanche
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