Dwarf Dragon Slayer

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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  squalie on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:06 pm

Mhael wrote:Carson there should be no reason elves can dance and still shoot without suffering for movement when dwarven 'gunlines' their strength suffer a minus 2

Not sure what you mean? Elves suffer from move/shoot. And no shooting, I mean NO shooting for the Elves is as good as the Short Dudes. Quick to fire, strength 4, armour piercing......

..........ah to heck with it. I'm not getting caught up in this again.

It's simple; Elves should be faster, Dwarfs should be slower. No Dwarf should be init 6 and no Elf should be toughness 5. Ever, ever. Doesn't it seem a little weird that the Dragon Slayer reads a little much? That's the kind of power creep I'm afraid of. Army owners get bored, complain there's units that "aren't usable" - whatever that means, so the design team adjusts them to make them an auto include, instead of tweaking them so they guys that want to use them, even for fluff reasons, can use them.

When someone claims that Dwarfs are "broken" - they don't mean unbeatable or ridiculously powerful. What broken means is that a unit/army has broken the fundamental rules and design it usually follows (like having speed it should never have or toughness that can't be explained)

An army is broken when "it breaks the rules", and gets abilities that wouldn't be considered normal for the race or unit. Allowing Dwarfs to march faster than Elves is precisely BROKEN. It should never happen. I picture a black and white movie of dudes running around in high speed and that's what my mind pictures when I see Dwarfs triple march. Giving them triple march is lazy game design. It's only created to overcome a weakness in the army and Dwarfs have a special rule for every single weakness in every other army. There's literally nothing they can't do. They have the highest average leadership in the game, and a lot of stubborn. As tough as ogres - across the board, with much better armour. WARD saves, in addition to toughness 4 and good armour. Have better (more accurate and more powerful) shooting than any other army. Dwarf stand and shooting is amazing and it gets worse when the left over models actually get into combat as they still have great weapons, tough 4 and armour.

They have access to a lot of powerful, armoured flying units that affect in multiple phases. Dwarfs are "virtually" unbreakable. Great movement,(considering their Dwarfs) - and not just great movement (for Dwarfs) but the CONSISTENT ability to take away good movement in other armies when they charge, technically doubling their threat range. Dwarf players lamenting the fact they have slow movement is often mitigated with their potentially great shooting, good flying units or they throw a stone on the ground (which they then pick back up) to take away your flanking advantage anyways. So their lack of movement 5 never really hurts them anyways. And considering they get defensive bonuses when you charge them and strength bonuses when THEY charge (I don't understand the design behind that) they is no draw back. When a Dwarf player proudly proclaims that they need you to fail your charge so they can get strength bonuses for countercharging says everything about the lack of direction in the army book.

And lets talk about magic - which Dwarfs should never be good at. Having 5+ "spells" to choose from (which are REALLY good) and never fearing a miscast when only using 3 dice is already "broken" (as in 'not normal') and even worse - it's in a Dwarf army. And not only can you actually out-cast other armies, you still have the ability to practically shut down your opponents magic phase...which I'll gladly admit is something Dwarfs should be really good at.

And before this gets out of control (too late)and feelings get hurt (they definitely shouldn't) I'm not talking about any individual (truly) - I'm talking about the pages that gives your army it's rules. I would never presume to blindly defend some blatant flaws in any army I play - at least I don't think I do? If so, let's have at it! Very Happy I'll defend a rule that makes sense and crit ones that don't. Furthermore, Dwarfs aren't the only culprit - it's just the one I see most extra rules thrown in simply for the sake of plugging holes and the only army I feel I need crib sheets to play against.

Having said all THAT, since they haven't been placing first in tourneys - what the hell do I know, I'm a friggin idiot?! Very Happy Heck, maybe I'll buy Sean's Dwarf army - as the saying goes "If you can't beat 'em......"
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Nathan.A. on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:30 pm

So just out of curiosity, what are the glaring weaknesses of dwarfs?

It's not movement
It's not war machines
It's not cc infantry
It's not ranged infantry (core or otherwise)
It's not fast moving units (gyro, can't march but still m10 I believe)
It's not leadership
Maybe lack of cavalry? I feel like this is one of the most underwhelming unit types in the game atm, so if this is their weakness it isn't likely a big one.
No monsters. This one is probably the most likely? Not sure though.
No potential for cheap large horde units, not sure if this is really a weakness or not when looking at what they do have.
They have skirmishers
They have scouts
They have ambushers
They have magic  Neutral
They have monstrous infantry
They have very good special rules (shield wall, thunderous charge)
Characters are very strong with many diverse build options.
Runes are straight OP; they are however thematic of dwarfs, who would/ should have the best equipment.

Is this list just total BS? I wouldn't really know, just a lowly O&G/ future DE player.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  squalie on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:38 pm

GAWD DAMMIT, Nathan posted in 10 lines what I wrote in way too many words.

From now on I'm texting Nathan.A. and then he can post for me. Very Happy
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:48 pm

Y'know Don, back in 6th ed...
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  nathanr on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:01 pm

If any character should be able to one-shot a monster it should be a dwarf dragon seeker.  That is what they do.  If he came up against a monster he'd only have 6 or 7 attacks though.

They are slower than everyone else though. Even with triple March.


Last edited by nathanr on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  squalie on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:03 pm

ScottRadom wrote:Y'know Don, back in 6th ed...

...I actually chuckled. You win.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  squalie on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:10 pm

nathanr wrote:If any character should be able to one-shot a monster it should be a dwarf dragon seeker.  That is what they do.  If he came up against a monster he'd only have 6 or 7 attacks though.

They are slower than everyone else though.  Even with triple March.

 I actually laughed out loud.  You definitely don't win. Cool  There is no way in game terms that you should put a 20mm model on the table that one shots a "better" monster.  Can't even believe that I had to write that.  And THEN you trump that with defending Dwarfs faster than humans marching.  Defending that Dwarfs even HAVE A TRIPLE MARCH RULE.  Holy cow...

 Nathan, poor Nathan - and you were always one of my favorite children. Wink

 Don't worry - I still love ya, just 100% don't agree.  Also, and what I really want to try to avoid (for everyone) is defending an army simply because you own it.  Love these passionate debates but I'm going to try to be objective.  Totally come at me about my armies, I'm actually super curious about what others feel is over the top.  I'll million dollar bet you the list isn't near as long.

**edit**

Actually, to be fair to the Dwarf guys - and let me make this clear; dwarfs are certainly beatable all I'm stating is they have poind-for-pound the most rules and very little actual weaknesses. Shouldn't have to feel guilty just cuz one plays them, but it's a verifiable fact. We should do this for every army. This should shake the Hornets nest a bit.

Let's start with Daemons: In your opinion, what makes you roll your eyes? We can move on to other armies depending on how many friends are left in the debate, LOL.


Last edited by squalie on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Being a shit disturber. I actually Love Andre and Nathan but like poking the bear.)
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Carson on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:21 pm

I love debating armies, its part of what makes the hobby awesome. We had these same conversations about bretonnians and Tzeentch chaos armies back in the day, ah 6th edition......the golden era of GW.

I'm gonna wade in on Scott's side though.....random charges narrowed the skill levels of the players. It wasn't about eye-balling charge distances but the importance of the movement phase.

Daemons.....it has to be the cock on wheels. Not so sure wether it is still an offender but who designed that shit pile?

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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  squalie on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:54 pm

Pick whatever army - makes no difference, they'll all get their due.

I think the ability to judge distance in previous editions was actually too much of the game (and Fear). I know this as I'm pretty good at telling you how far units are away from each other. And because of that I was able to make an observation of others that weren't so good at it. If I was better at that single ability than someone who was waaay better at a few other abilities in 7th edition - it didn't balance. One who simply guessed better distance had the edge. Doesn't seem right to me and I still insist that's nostalgia seeping in.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  nathanr on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:02 pm

It doesn't matter what size base a model is on, a 450 point character made to kill monsters in both the fluff and the rules should be able to kill a monster that is worth less points than it.

So dwarfs can march faster than humans, is that not fluffy? They've been fast marchers since Tolkien wrote The Hobbit. I like that about dwarfs. They don't charge as far though and if they have to do any other maneuvering they do it more slowly than everyone else too. I don't think the triple March rule is OP. I do think they should bring back the -1 to pursue and flee though.

What is the real problem everyone has with Dwarfs? All I'm hearing is that they are apparently good at everything and have no weaknesses. I'm curious, what are the glaring weaknesses in other armies? Do orcs and goblins have one? Warriors of chaos? My point is, why does an army need to have a weakness to make it fair?
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Nathan.A. on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:38 pm

nathanr wrote: why does an army need to have a weakness to make it fair?

You just need to have balance between the strengths and weaknesses. Right now maybe the weaknesses dwarfs have aren't popular in the meta-game? Like I mentioned before cavalry units don't seem to be very strong in this edition, therefore the lack of cavalry in the dwarf book isn't really a weakness, even though it may have been considered one when they designed the army.

The meta-game determines more than anything else the strength of a single army; anyone who ever played LoL knows that the addition of a single new character can potentially change the effectiveness of every other character in the game (prob not every one but you know what I mean), all because the meta shifts.

What I mean to say is in a game where infantry is king, the army with the best infantry is king, even if you have shit everything else.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  squalie on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:38 pm

Lol, actually - nothing good can come of this. Lets just play our armies, let others bug us about our armies and settle it on the table top. It's good to see people passionate about the race of models they buy. Peace!
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:48 pm

O and G weakness is still crappy LD, no? Warriors of Chaos are super expensive point wise, or are they on par with others now? I know rough pointing out units of Nurgle Warriors with Halberds it was hella expensive.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:52 pm

I think any kinda point based game any force that has some strengths vs. "the Baseline vanilla army" should have some weaknesses to offset it. For dwarfs it used to be no mobility and no offensive magic to speak of.

I played the single game with an OnG army Carson made up for me to use and I think I missed the animosity test.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  nathanr on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:59 pm

Here's what I think, dwarfs are good at most things. I don't think they are the best at any one thing. They are an army without any major weaknesses. I think they are a balanced army in which there are no bad choices.

Yes they have good shooting but so does empire, so do skaven. There are definitely more powerful war machines than what the dwarfs have access to.

Yes their infantry are very good but I would argue that warriors of chaos have better elite infantry. Other armies have good infantry too and there is a quality to quantity as well.

Magic is decent, much better than they've ever had before but they are by no means the most powerful casters nor do they have access to the best spells.

They are ok at movement, gyrocopters help but there are better flyers out there and no cavalry means other armies will be flanking them. They have rules that help them deal with that.

I like that this whole thing started with discussion of a character that nobody ever sees on the table. I actually think Nathan A's iron Orc general hits about as hard and has more defense. As it should be though, iron orcs should be among the biggest baddest characters out there.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Nathan.A. on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:02 am

Yeah all armies have their strengths, some more than others.

I really don't know how strong dwarfs are, I've more heard the stories than actually lived them.

I'm sure that there are ways that a player might be able to mitigate the presence of a dragon seeker, but it does just seem crazy that they have such high potential impact.

In conclusion:

I don't have any idea if dwarfs are broken/ not broken, strong/ weak, I'm sure there are good lists and bad lists.

The potential for dragon seekers seems too high, of course how things appear when math-hammering is not often how they play out on the table, it could easily be they're perfectly balanced points wise.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Carson on Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:36 am

You know after thinking about this last night I really think its not the stats or unit entries that are the problem but its actually the "stacking" of abilities, rules etc. The first experience I had with this was against Sean's dwarf army, almost identical to what I faced vs Andre.

If you look at the unit entries in the dwarf book, they look good but not overboard. The problem is that when they hit the table everything suddenly is multiplied by special rules that can stack upon each other. The anvil and the rune casting is the big problem. No other army can throw out multiple augments/hexes per turn with such as low casting cost with no chance of suffering a miscast.

Hey, I've played armies that were on the top of the power curve.......remember 8th edition chaos warriors? Alot of time I really didn't even have to think with that army.....just push forward and win. I'd never try to defend the army, its what it was. Did I feel guilty playing them, no, but I sure as shit wouldn't sit there and claim that they were just a balanced army.

I really hope that the book has some revision to the rune system when its finalized. I really don't see that happening but we'll see.

Any other thoughts on units that are on the high side of the curve. My block of pestilence once chosen are for sure on the high side of the curve, the only real weakness are the lack of ranks.

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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Kuyp on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:28 am

My problem with dwarves I think HAS to get fixed . That's the spellcasting , it doesn't make sence to me fluff wise, it's to easy game wise , and I honestly just don't think they need it. Other then that I think they allready fixed the gun line problem. the crazy good ( like waaaay to good) shooting that could come from one unit was hell.

Other then that I think the rest has stayed the same since o started playing. You see big blocks of guys with good stats armour and great weapons and you just have to deal with it, and usually I don't find it to hard to chip away at them. It's a matter of stacking the odds in your favor but that goes for every army you face.

Now I could see people complain about O&G a bit as well. Mannglers are kick ass , but only because they are cheap as hell. If the points were higher no one would take them because they die to a stiff brezze. Nets I feel also get complained about but I don't think they are over the top. Just something you have to deal with. No animosity is great but it does take away from the character of the army more then adds to the game play I find. Other then that I don't think I have come across many other complaints.

Let's talk demons since don offered ( and I haven't faced tk or high elves since 8th). My biggest thing is the bloodletters strength allways being 5 with its weapon and there is no way to change that...ever. every army has access to different weapons that gain strength bonus or such but usually with a draw back ( aka requires two hands and or initiative 0). But these things have none and can never be modified by say magic . Ward saves suck but that's nothing new, and again that's just something we have to deal with, it's not over the top. So far that's my only issue with the demons
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  nathanr on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:06 am

Maybe I'm wrong and you guys are right, perhaps dwarfs are OP and I'm the only one that doesn't realize it. I haven't used mine since the beginnings of 9th age and when I did my record was about 50%. That was 2 or 3 editions ago though so maybe they've changed since then. Andre's gunline army last league was frustrating to play against but I'm pretty sure I did win once or twice against it and it really didn't do well at the tournament in Edmonton so maybe it was more his opponents than his army Laughing . That army is pretty much impossible to make now anyway so it isn't really a valid point anymore.

I guess in my experience the dwarfs haven't seemed any more OP than any other army so that's why I've been defending them so vehemently. I certainly didn't feel like I was playing with a stacked deck when I was using them and I don't think I've ever felt hopeless playing against them (except when I was using wood elves and EVERYTHING in Andre's army had flaming attacks/shots). Heck, last game against them my elf archers wiped out two units of elite dwarf infantry with their shooting. That -D6" charge banner is super-annoying but you know that one of the combat units has it. By the way, I'm not sure that Andre has been using that banner correctly. In our game he rolled one dice for all 4 units that were charging. I went back and read the rules for it and I think you have to roll for each individual unit. Either way, it is a super-annoying item but it is something that you know is going to be there and you can plan for it.

The only things I would change in the army would be to reinstate the -1" to flee and pursuit distances. It was always so frustrating to me that I could beat something in close combat but I could never run it down when it broke or if I ever fled I knew I had a better than average chance of being caught and destroyed. It was a huge weakness that affected both the dwarfs' survivability and their killyness AND it was in line with the character of the army.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Carson on Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:11 pm

good post by Dom, I do think that its the spell casting that is the problem. Andre's gun line was scary as hell but it was beatable once you made it into combat.

Perhaps the best way to really judge an army is to play against what you have built yourself, that would probably mess with everyones head. An interesting idea for a tournament that I heard awhile back was exactly this. Everyone brings their favourite build, all the armies are then bid on by the players with victory points with the caveat being that you cannot use your own army. Victory points are tallied at the end and your bid is subtracted from your total. I think this would be a great time!

Right now, the only really dependable unit in the deamon army are the bloodletters, not sure they are "too" good but I wouldn't want to face a whole army of them. Dom hit the nail on the head with the O&G. I've played against dwarfs, High Elves, KOE, O&G, and Tombkings with 1.2. The dwarfs are the only army I think needs an adjustment. Removal of the rune casting would do it.

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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Kal on Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:51 pm

My 2 cents ... or i guess its a nickel now cause we have no pennies... fuck how does that work now?

Anyways my 5 cents...?

Why does everyone feel Dwarves shouldnt have magic? I think the biggest problem with Dwarves is trying to give ONE army custom Magic / Casters. Instead of messing around with anvils and runes and trying to balance an odd outlying army with its own custom magic rules just give Dwarves actual "Wizard" or what ever with actual wizard levels, and give them access to the actual lores. Maybe create a new Lore of Stone that more than one army has access too? Or maybe limit dwarves to Fire and Metal lores (or whatever the new names are) and see what happens? i'm sure if Dwarves started hiding lvl 2 mages in crossbow units that could miscast and be shut down easier then all this complaining would stop. I mean all the other armies with Custom lore got chopped, so why bother keeping the custom magic that the dwarves  have.

I'm just saying we're ,making a new game, 9th! Why do we have to keep dwarf magic the same just because once upon a time GW said so. I mean hell even World Of Warcraft lets you make a Dwarf Mage now! took quite a few expansions but even they realized that. OR go the other direction and dwarves get LITERALLY no magic like before. Anyways, just my 5 cents.

*** oh and Dwarves were the only army of mine Brain consistently beat with Lizardmen, same Str/Tou/Ini but he generally had more attacks and more bodies then me, with monsters to back up his infantry, and access to spears to attack in more ranks. Stomps hurt dwarves, ALOT they have no way to not get stomped and everything in their army CAN be stomped (minus the fliers and i guess the MI now)


Last edited by Kal on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  squalie on Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:53 pm

In regards to Bloodletters, the internet seems to think plaguebearers are best considering they can get a 4+ regent for a core unit that has poison. BUT, I have always defended the Letters, as the strength 5, never modified is pretty cool. You have to pay for it, and lose lethal strike but of course you should. The 5+ ward is fine considering most of the units are toughness 3 with little to no armour. Having said that, I shelved my daemons near the end of 7th as I legit felt guilty putting them on the table. I'm borderline extatic that they are in bottom tier now and super hope they don't go above middle ground as that's the army in going to keep adding to.

Nets are annoying but super cool and no where near over powered. Manglers are crazy scary but you can deal with them and I have no issue with them - especially now that they only hurt one unit.

I also have some more thought to the Dwarfs and if I had to pick one single thing I would also consider their magic phase to be OP and unnecessary. I sure don't want Dwarf players to think their "those" guys as that's not the case at all. Every rule in the book in one army just seems...a lot.

I'm also having a tough time coming up with a handful of units that I think need a big change, so maybe 9th is even more balanced than I think? There are a few that could use slight improvements but I can even think of a unit that screams way over board. Although I did hear about this one Dwarf unit..... Wink
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Mhael on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:39 pm

I agree with Nathan R. A slayer will seek out the biggest baddest mofo to challenge his wrath. 450 vs a giants 280pts. Slayer should be able to take him 85% of the time at least. Speaking of giants thump...fail your init and take 2d6 WOUNDS at ap6. All gor a ridiculous 280 pts AND YOU CAN FIELD 3 OF THEM!
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  Mhael on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:44 pm

As for magic dwarfs we only trust it so far thus casting only 3 dice to avoid miscasts will avg 9. Now to dispell is an automatic -1 for bound plus your wizard level means unless you didnt take a caster you should not be out magicked. What is significant for dispelling i traded a 280 pt runesmith for a common banner worth 50 pts that lets me dispel like a wizard master.
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Re: Dwarf Dragon Slayer

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:08 pm

You dwarf guys are making me puke. Just revel in this shit!!!!! Write down the name of everyone who's bitching, what they're complaining about and then take as much of that shit as you can next time you play them!

The advantage all of you dwarf guys have is that I think everyone is more or less a career dwarf player. Some of you guys are from 5th ed., no? You played them little mother fuckers when they was just j-brones but now they walk around with dat championship gold! Love it!

I remember when I built an all metal Nurgle demon army back n'a'day. 6th ed (remember those days Don?). I built it under the Hordes of Chaos army days and it was brutal. Unplayable in the worst way. Couldn't even hope for a draw on it's best day. But do any of you bitches remember Storm of Chaos? HOT DAMN!!! Army shot up into the top of the over power rankings and I believe that army massacred every opponent I played for a good 20 or 30 games. I never apologized once! Storm of Chaos baby!

Just run with it boys. People think guns are too much on your dwarfs? Take more! When someone mutters about how broken something is give 'em the "You think that's bad, wait till THIS happens!" then drop some next level broken shit on a punk.

Everyone hates them pricks that see how OP an army is so they run out and collect that specific internet build from the top of the tourney food chain. None of you guys did that shit.

Just have fun with it! Own it.

It won't last forever.
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