How To Beat : Dwarves

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How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Kal on Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:34 am

So figured since this is such a new game and sometimes broken units / armies / builds come up. I figured when that was the case we could make a "How To Beat" thread about them where we can complain/comment/figure out whats wrong with armies and stuff. Just so we dont clutter up Game Report Threads making it impossible for the League organizer to actually sort out the games played through the pages of discussion.

Ambush - I feel like quite a number of armies have access to units that can ambush but we never use them. Popping up behind slow to fire dwarf units or Warmachines can really be nasty for a dwarf. Without access to fast cav or anything that moves over 9" (except gyros) and the fact that dwarves usually deploy in one giant clump. I think popping up behind  the dwarves or somewhere on a flank but in their deployment might be a viable way to deal with them.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Carson on Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:49 am

I've yet to break a ranked dwarf unit from the front in 9th age. The only way is to multiple charge them from different arcs or to pin them with fast cav, opening up a flank. Still puzzeled by how to deal with dwarf magic though. They have such an extremely low casting cost that dwarf players can throw out more spells per phase than a wizard master.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Kal on Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:21 pm

A Master Rune Smith has 8 spells to choose from and can pick up to 4 pre battle for 5 points each. They have a 6" Casting Value of 4+ and a 12" Casting Value of 5" but they never get any +'s to casting. Just what they roll and a 2+ when dispelling.

They throw alot of spells but just as many as a Lore master imo. Not saying that Dwarf Mages arn't a little to much. Just saying when you get every signature as a Lore master everything has a low casting value of 4-9. Just saying with the +2 master wizards get for casting and the potential 3+ they can get with Arcane Items, your looking at a 1-6 casting cost... Which is on par with the Dwarves except the signatures get a much higher range and an attribute spell too.

Altho the Dwarf Runes are Bound Spells so miscasts arnt a fear.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Kal on Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:25 pm

Just playing devils advocate here, trying to see all sides. Because i completely agree that Dwarves are 0 fun to play against because they seem just so hard to crack.

Just wondering WHY cant you break a dwarf unit to the front? is it LD 10? is it that they out rank you? that they are stubborn?

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  nathanr on Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:32 pm

@Carson - Depends on what kind of dwarf infantry you are trying to kill:

- Hammerers will put out a lot of S6 attacks but die fairly easily (as easily as T4 AS 4+ dies). They will strike last and they are expensive so their unit should be small-ish. Charge with overwhelming force, kill as many as you can and be prepared for a grind in following rounds. Try to line up another charge if you can because these guys will stick around until the last dwarf.

- Longbeards can be equipped several different ways. Great weapons or HW/Shield. They can also have throwing axes. The HW/Shield option is so much better that you won't see them use anything else generally. With it, they are almost as good as ironbreakers for less points. Of course that also means that they aren't as high strength so armour and higher toughness will help you. They only have one attack and they'll likely be ranked 5 wide to maximize their rank bonus meaning you'll be facing 11 WS5 S4 attacks. Their real strength is their defense. The 5+ ward save in the first round of combat means that if you charge with lances or something else giving you a first round strength boost a lot of those quality wounds are going to be saved (statistically 1/3). Instead charge them with something that has T4 and lots of S5 attacks every round. You will have the advantage.

- Ironbreakers are the ultimate defensive troops. They are also fairly expensive. Hit them on the flanks if possible or if you go into the front be prepared for a long drawn out combat (longer and even more drawn out than against other dwarf infantry). Again you won't take many wounds each turn but you won't cause many either. Shooting and magic is the most useful against these guys (think lore of metal).

- Crossbows and handgunners are deceiving as they are still WS4, T4 with heavy armour and can even have great weapons and/or shields. A quality stand and shoot reaction without the -1 to hit is also nasty. These guys aren't as easy pickings as they may appear. Their unit sizes are usually fairly small and they don't have the shield wall rule (no ward save) so any combat block should be able to blow through them but fast cav or flyers aren't going to deal with them as easily.

- Stock warriors are fine but I never see them. Why bother when a similarly pointed block of longbeards will perform way better. Still, deal with them in the same manner as longbeards.

- Rangers are terrible. Great weapons might surprise someone but they are expensive and having a dwarf unit way out in front scouting and unsupported is asking to have that dwarf unit die.

- Slayers are a delivery system for the ridiculously killy slayer characters. Kill the character first and the unit will underperform and die quickly.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Mhael on Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:51 pm

I have neglected to comment as i am harshly biased (welcome to the age of the dawi). For years there have been few dwarf players due to the limitation of effective list builds possible. Dom is going to take my flying list against my ogre list ( that ripped through Carson). Yes there are ambushers as i do feel they are an undervalued tactic so far. There have been many struggles in finding ways to be competitive with dwarf lists in the past and i dont feel they are unbeatable now. I do have several ideas which i will not share as i think they will become common place when fighting dwarfs and why give up the advantage...just think like a dwarf. I didnt really have much to say except haters gonna hate, dawi gonna drink brews in the beer hall

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Kal on Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:26 pm

Ok... Like... I honestly dont want to be this guy... but like someone has to do it / say it...

Andre... Your lists can't be printed on pen and paper anymore. To many times your list turns out to be illegal, an honest mistake that would happen if anyone was trying to make a list on pen and paper. But i mean there are tons of free army building programs that you can even just use on your phone, ie Battle Scribe. and then buy a wireless printer and you can print off your phone. If you love pen and paper lists because they give you a different feel. then make a list on pen and paper, just verify it on a program after.

On that note Andre this was for helps and tips in fighting Dwarves, just like Nathan put. If your advice is i have ideas but dont want to share. "I do have several ideas which i will not share as i think they will become common place when fighting dwarfs and why give up the advantage.." then dont even post.

@ Nathan thank you, that was the idea for this post.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  nathanr on Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:49 pm

3 points:

1. Andre has army builder.

2. Army builder has problems too.

3. I have never used an "army building" program to make my army lists, they just happen to be typed out and nicely formatted.

In order to stay on topic, here are some other helpful tidbits for facing dwarfs:

1. Range is generally 24" on most of their effective shooting. If you have longer range than that you could try to stay outside 24" and shoot and magic, hopefully make him come to you.

2. If you see all your opponents' combat units bunched up around a central unit you can bet that central unit has the runic banner that gives a ward vs shooting to everything close by. Shoot at something else and try to lure the other units outside the protective bubble.

3. Despite them being able to triple march you are probably still more maneuverable than a dwarf infantry unit. Set up the battlefield on your terms, don't just rush into the dwarf deployment zone. Set up flank charges, fake threats, multiple angles etc.

4. Dwarf characters can be on par with a chaos or vampire lord. Don't underestimate them because their model doesn't look as bad-ass or intimidating. Take note of where they are at deployment and remember. Runesmiths and Runelords give buffs to a unit that they join, kill them to get rid of the buffs. A dwarf BSB is very valuable. LD 9 or 10 is really good and re-rollable 10 is as close to a sure thing in this game as you're going to get. Get rid of the re-roll to get a chance to break the dwarfs early.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Kal on Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:05 pm

** i have to get back to work right now so i dont have time for another bigger post just know this.

Honestly Andre, this is 0% an attack on you. I was just using you as my last example. Justin use to make hand lists too and on more than 1 occasion id find myself staring down a 40 strong unit of Clan Rats only to find out on turn 5 that they shouldnt have even been on the field. I am seriously not trying to start a fight and i'm not even upset or mad about anything. I just think everyone should use the same measuring stick when making army lists to keep things legit. Sometimes army builder has a point value wrong and a simple glance at your army book you can see this. But i think army builders are invaluable when keeping things like "One of a kind" and when totaling a characters Armour and Ward save. no doing the math on 5+ heavy armour and a shield and a fancy helmet adding up to 3+ etc.

Anyways honestly didnt mean anything by it, just if we're going to complain about dwarves lets all try and narrow down WHY and what can be done about it. Hell maybe we will go to the 9th forms and actually post some well thought out arguments. Or we can just start a flame war like i just might have Smile either way maybe dwarves are tough, maybe they are broke, maybe they are just such a unique army no one know how to face em. MAYBE just MAYBE its because there are 3+ dwarf players in the group so maybe the ONLY problem is that since we fight against the army so much that it SEEMS like its a harder choice when maybe the unplayed Skaven are the real MVP's of 9th. Think about it, if we had muliple Empire armies in the group and 3+ people played them maybe we wouldnt even be talking about dwarves. Anyways, i hope to have the chance to crush some dwarves at the next event Smile

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  squalie on Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:27 pm

We've already narrowed down why I have trouble with Dwarfs...I'm a crappy player. 😀 I honestly thought that was hilarious and certainly can't be discounted. Since I have never owned or played as Dwarfs maybe I don't understand them enough to know how to fight them. I think there is logic in that train of thought. Facing some lists I know exactly what to target and what to ignore. Since Dwarfs all look the same to me (yes, I said it) I sometimes get confused as to the real threat.

We also have to be careful about hurting feelings here (I know, coming from me) but this is sensitive stuff and can take a while to heal if someone takes it to heart.

Having said that, I appreciate Nathan's well thought out responses and Andre's unabashed love for the Dawi. That's passion from both.

Army builder has its issues, very minor, but it can't even be argued that a computer is less fallible than a hand written list. A computer program adds better than this dumb Ukrainian, pretty much every time. Heck, the updates for army builder come waaaay faster than before because no one has to worry about GW lawyers going after army builder. It's days now for an update and that's amazing. If you suspect someone's list of being a little disingenuous it's almost never on purpose and the people known for doing it - are known by all for doing it.

This topic has gained some traction and in a month or so may all be moot anyways. Let's see what the new committee for 9th will decide and then begin a whole new round of whining. Very Happy

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  nathanr on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:52 pm

The only reason I was happy with the 9th age dwarf book was because I could come close to making the army I had in 7th edition and early 8th. 3 blocks of elite infantry (hammerers, ironbreakers, longbeards), 2 organ guns, 2 units of 10 thunderers, a grudge thrower and a cannon.

The new 8th edition book that came out about the time Sean got into dwarfs ruined that list for me and added a bunch of stupid new rules that I didn't like. It also ruined the rune combos that I put on my guys. When 9th age hit there were still lots of those dumb rules (like magic casting dwarfs, triple march, +1S on the charge etc.) and the runes were still a bit messed up but I could almost make my army again so I was happy and oblivious to the fact that apparently dwarfs are now broken compared to the rest of the field. In fact my personal W/L record with dwarfs was decidedly weighted toward the L column so maybe that makes me the bad player right Don? I guess maybe I wasn't exploiting the strengths of the book.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Mhael on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:16 pm

So to appease Sean I upgraded army builder and inputed my lists. My dwarf list checks out fine. My ogre list has no mention of the dragonskin banner worth 40 pts which is in the army books newest version and there doesnt appear to be a foreman upgrade for my scrapling champion worth 20 pts, again in the newest army book

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  squalie on Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:14 pm

You know, the more I think about this the worse I feel a bout it. It seems a shitty thing to make a guy feel bad about his army. It's something that Warrior and Daemon guys had to deal with and it made guys shelf, or sell, their armies because no one had fun playing against them. That is not good for the hobby and has caused a little divide in our group - and we can't have that.

So, I extend and olive branch to the short furry people. I still don't like you (I'm a High Elf guy) but I'd be happy to play against you as often as necessary. Smile Let's get back to playing Warhammer. Our lovely, forever unbalanced, friendly game of Warhammer.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Carson on Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:50 pm

Actually the ninth age web site has a free army roster in the rules section. It is quite easy to use and makes easily read army lists....something that always bugged me about army builder.

We've had similar discussions about other armies, mainly warriors in 8th edition. Its part of the game and probably always will be. The tricky part is building an army that can win but not leaving your opponent feel like he just wasted 3 hours of his life. I've tried to keep this in mind when I put together a list but admittedly it becomes increasingly difficult after getting bitch slapped repeatedly.

When I have faced complaints from the community about my army I didn't take it as an offence but as a signal that my opponents were not having fun......which is the object of the whole thing.

The games I played against Andre were super fun actually.......I had an army (undead) that could replenish itself so I was able to deal (sometimes) with his gunline. The game against Sean felt like I had wasted 3 hours of my life. To his credit, Sean built, what he thought would be a balanced list. However his combat units had so much synergy with his magic casting that the opposite happened.

Lets be honest, we've all had games where we walked over our opponents and (hopefully) felt bad for doing so. This is what makes our group great.....a small group that isn't afraid to keep itself in check.

This has actually made me want to play against Dwarfs more now.

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

Post  Kal on Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:53 am

Yeah i dont want army choices to divide the group. I think my Dwarves will get shelved for a while now. I honestly thought i had a list with a little of everything. No shooting unit over 10 man strong and nothing with BS higher than 3. Only 1 unruned Warmachine. Block of 22 Ironbreakers, 23 Longbears and 17 Slayers.

I hope we all remain friends even if we are running cheesy armies/lists.

@ Carson : sorry our game felt like a waste of time. Honestly when i saw your army across the table thats not how i thought the game was going to go. But when you rear charged with a giant, flank charge with a chariot, front charged with a chariot. AND because of the ini of the giant and him ending combat i only got to attack with the 2 character not the rest of the unit. and the dwarves still stuck around and killed a chariot... i was very surprised. And the two 9" charges i shouldnt have gotten lead to some very good over runs for me. Next game i'll bring some O&G for you to beat up on Smile

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Re: How To Beat : Dwarves

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