Age of Sigmar point system

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Age of Sigmar point system

Post  squalie on Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:23 pm

Ok, it looks like we may see a few of these crop up (hopefully) so this is as good a place as any to keep them sorted and find one we all can agree upon. Post any that you find here so we can pick it apart and see what rises to the surface.

What are the flaws in using the 8th edition army builder creation to determine armies sizes for a battle? I understand it doesn't work for new armies, but where does it fall short? Is that good enough for now? Pick away!

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  The Apothecary on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:33 pm

K well im tossin my 2 cents in here. Im fine with using the old point system until a better system is set up, but I do fear that we may run into SOME walls here with certain stuff. So if this is the route we choose I would suggest everyone keeping an eye open for things that may be over/under pointed and perhaps we can make adjustments.

Also I will add the point thing I have read about. It is Wound+AttacksxBravery. Im not sure how good this system is, but it may be worth looking in to.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:37 pm

Heres the only one ive found so far that wasnt the goofy math equation and it seems decent:

1-12 warscrolls
1-2 hero warscrolls
0-2 monster war scrolls

no warscroll can have more than X wounds (ie 20)
heroes may not be duplicated
all other warscrolls may only be duplicated once


I like this one, easy to remember and encourages taking various units instead of just your elites.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Carson on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:44 pm

The only way to know if they work is to try them. This looks good on paper (or screen) I guess. We should give this one a try. Is this the leaked form that supposedly went out to store owners?

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:48 pm

Carson wrote:The only way to know if they work is to try them. This looks good on paper (or screen) I guess. We should give this one a try. Is this the leaked form that supposedly went out to store owners?

Yeah it is the supposed "leaked one". Also I was just looking through the warscrolls again and we could also maybe allow core units to be taken more than twice since there are certain formations that require 3 units of say ogres or saurus to be able to use the formations which i think encourage more thematic armies. Again the wound allowance/warscroll is also a major factor balancing ogres vs say elves since the wounds limit how many ogres you can take, not the models

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Carson on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:00 pm

One issue I see with this is the simple fact that most units will never see the light of day now......why would a person take dwarf warriors instead of iron breakers or the other elites. Most armies will be composed of only the best of the best.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:02 pm

not familiar with dwarves but are iron breakers core? Because as per my other post warriors in objective games would be far more valuable since they are core, though you would still take iron breakers to hit things with. if they are core well that makes it more difficult to balance

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  squalie on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:14 pm

Carson wrote:One issue I see with this is the simple fact that most units will never see the light of day now......why would a person take dwarf warriors instead of iron breakers or the other elites. Most armies will be composed of only the best of the best.


Isn't that always the case though? How many Marauders do you see anymore? Warriors are way gooder. Very Happy

Here's some links to others thoughts...

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=69178

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?411052-AoS-Army-Composition-Algorithm

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:25 pm

I didnt read the second one since it is filled with way too much overly complicated math I mean if we really get desperate i guess haha). However the first one has alot of ideas we can pull from as we play games and run into more or less problems. The problem with the game to me lies far more in comp than in points. If comp is correct then you dont need points which is what i think GW was aiming for.

Sure great you have points but then you really just take all the elite dudes since a really strong small army with a few mobile hard hitters has advantage due to sudden death. I think Scenarios are really the key to the other side of the coin. Basic comp balances it a little but adding objectives completes that. For example you take a small elite force but you'll likely lose because your opponent took some the weaker core troops and more of them to secure more objectives and have greater table presence.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  nathanr on Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:26 am

I think you can get fairly close in balance by using the minimum size as a marker for units. Say you want to bring 6 ogre bulls in a unit. That'll count as 2 units because the minimum unit size is 3. It also gives you a reason to take things like dwarf warriors over ironbreakers because ironbreakers are minimum 5 and warriors are minimum 10 to a unit.

Then you just pick a number of war scrolls and limits on characters and monsters and you are good to go.

Example:

Max 2 characters, 2 monsters, 6 war scrolls.
Tyrant
Butcher
6 ironguts
Giant
Stone horn

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  The Apothecary on Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:17 am

My only problem with the point system is what do you do about horde armies? Take goblins for example the minimum or goblins are 10 and the minimum for orcs is 10, you can't tell me 10 goblins are of equal value for 10 orcs :/

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  nathanr on Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:30 am

True enough. It isn't a perfect system for sure. We may need to tweak the minimum unit sizes a bit to consider the horde units like goblins and skaven.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  The Apothecary on Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:03 pm

What about combining the 2 systems. So say 1000 point game. What they cost is what they cost but have a tier system. So like 1000 points 1 character 2 rare and 2 specials. That's just a rough idea it would need tweaking. But then just take point values at base from the book . So have the new tyrant but at the old tyrants base cost . That way ok Don wants to play 2 units of 5 necro Knights Well that's fine but the rest of his army won't be so intimidating. Again this may be just foolhardy. I myself can poke holes in it ex now a pure zombie army just wins ( omg zombie hordes are op now). But keep the ball rolling and eventually someone will score a great idea Smile

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:49 pm

Well you guys might want to check this out. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/age-of-sigmar-comp-and-you.html

This comp system is fairly simple yet adds some much needed comp points.

I think its definitely worth a try anyways.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Carson on Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:40 pm

I like the looks of it,

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  squalie on Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:09 pm

Is that a whole ruleset? Comp already? Rolling Eyes

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:48 pm

Lol yeah some people work quick i guess. Im down to try it with and without. I still like the idea of a warscroll by warscroll type of comp but there are alot of issues that need to be addressed for it to work

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  squalie on Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:07 pm

Hey, I'm speaking for myself, but it seems quite arrogant to comp a game that most haven't even tried yet. Why not try something radical? How about we actually PLAY a few games of actual Age of Sigmar using Age of Sigmar models and battle scrolls. It's a goofy enough idea that it just might work. Wink

My only, single concern is finding a point system so we can use our 8th edition armies. I'm not worried about whether I should be able to shoot into combat or not.

No one has given a single reason why using 8th edition army construction couldn't work. I actually don't know - I'm looking for advice and ideas.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:56 pm

Same reason i dont think any point system will work. IMO it has to be a fairly loose comp system again something based on warscrolls not necessarily models because there are alot of rules that are dependent on deployment and deployment gets nerfed by points in general.

I also have 0 problem playing AoS as it is written. Certainly for the first few games anyways. After that my only suggestion would be adding scenarios to mix it up a bit. Thats my take on it. Also i am nearly convinced the warscrolls for our old models was not intended to be overly balanced with the current rules we have (examples such as ogres clearly show this). I mean i guess it is balanced by other armies being able to summon things but that just feels weird...."i summon kroq gar on a bloody carnosaur!!!! whats up?" (yeah thats in the rules).

I am just honestly trying to contain my excitement to see the next AoS army they release to really get a feel for if the game will be more of what we've seen of the new stuff or reminiscent of the warscrolls for old models, in which case, bleh.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  The Apothecary on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:52 pm

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Age-of-Sigmar-Errata-and-Scenarios.pdf


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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:10 pm

Ahh, nvm i see they are unofficial Sad got real excited there for a minute.

Looks like they stole some warmachine scenarios (a good idea) and adopted a few 40k conventions for melee's and stuff. The one use of heroic only is kinda lame too since thats what gives spice to the game.

The comp system is pretty good though.

Well im down to try vanilla rules with points agreement for the first few games anyways. Plus we could always checkout the scenarios it gives in that pdf since they are kinda cool.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  squalie on Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:47 pm

we are trying the "unofficial" rules right now and my vote is for the 8th point system - at least just choosing between the two.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:18 pm

squalie wrote:we are trying the "unofficial" rules right now and my vote is for the 8th point system - at least just choosing between the two.

Sounds good to me. (by points you mean 8th army book values?) Let us know how it goes!

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  squalie on Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:24 pm

Dark Elves are beating the ever-lovin Jaysus out of Vampire Counts.  Executioners are bloody amazing and 20 Darkshards can remove a unit of Crypt Horrors in one turn.  Shooting is really good in AoS.  Used 100 wounds each using the fake unofficial rules.  I'm having a tough time believing these are real which we can talk about in person.

 AoS seems to flow better as there doesn't seem to be the book pauses you had in 8th.


Last edited by squalie on Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

Post  Deadlytoaster on Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:06 pm

Yeah the Dark elf models are pretty good on the warscrolls! Did you take the exiled warhost by chance? Also i was shocked to see basically all the models in dark elf range have updated plastic minis! executioners and black guard are sick!

Also i'll post this here because i dont know where else to post it but i am moving my skinks to 25mm rounds and my saurus will go on 32mm rounds. However the old blood is significantly bigger (its the plastic one with the pre-moulded square base). I just wanted to know if you guys were cool with me putting him on a 40mm base since we will likely end up going by bases for distances instead of model to models.

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Re: Age of Sigmar point system

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