Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

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Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  squalie on Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:20 am

So, a long time ago, Sept 23 2012 to be exact, I was reading a thread on Warseer (that is pinned) dedicated to "discussing" (re:complaining) the pricing of GW and their products. I was mentioning to someone the other day (Justin?) about me posting in this thread out of frustration (imagine that) and stating that I went off on someone who bitches about not being able to afford Warhammer. I actually found my posts the other day and figured I'd link it here to see what others think about what I think - or thought. I will gladly defend or change my views and am genuinely curious if I'm off my rocker or not. Please be transparent in your opinions and views - I can take it.

Needless to say, there were a few responses....

This thread is almost 1000 PAGES LONG!!!!! Think about that for a second. My interruption begins on page 440, post 8397. I should also mention that I forgot all about this thread and never went back to respond to comments directed at me. It's weird reading something 2 years old and feeling "OH YA?!?!". I'll admit my response was emotional and reactionary but should say that I still agree with what I wrote.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?209297-Games-Workshop-Pricing-Feedback-Thread/page440

Man, I can be suck a dick...... Very Happy

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  ScottRadom on Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:58 am

I didn't bother reading much other than you're post Don. You know I agree with you 100%.

Warhammer is LESS expensive now than when I started. That's right... suck on that...

Back when there were no plastics baby. You wanted an Orc army? 9 bucks for a blister of three. And that's in 1989 dollars being spent by a kid who was in Elementary school. But I wanted it so I saved and made it a priority.

Warhammer is not a priority though on the old scale necessity. And there are cheaper games out there, I even think some/most of them are better! So why do people keep playing warhammer? 'Cause it's warhammer. The IP is tops, mini's mostly really cool and people no matter the price tag think they're getting value. If a customer disagrees with any of these then why not quit and move on? Privateer press is calling you!

All hobbies are as expensive as you want them to be. If The prices of GW stuff means you have to choose between buying the new army book or eating then perhaps it's just not for you. Also can't stand the amount of bullshit people do downloading army books for free. Fuck you guys. "Why shouldn't I have something just because I can't afford it?"

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  bluepeople on Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:23 pm

I pirate army books all the time. I also spend a ridiculous amount on books and models as well. I'm not going to buy the warriors book just because I need a page or 2 to run a hell cannon with my chaos dwarfs - I already coughed up a pretty penny for Tamurkhan (it should have all the rules I need to run the army already included. That being said I have a hard copy of all the army books I need for the armies I run. Except the dwarf book; but I don't know if I'm keeping dwarfs yet anyway.

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  nathanr on Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:14 am

I agree with what you wrote as well Don, but I also agree that GW prices are high. That said, I very rarely buy anything new unless I have gift certificates or in-store credit to bring those prices down. I make due with what I have and save for what I want.

If I didn't do Warhammer I'd have a different hobby which would inevitably be more expensive. I'd take more ski trips in winter or play hockey, more trips to the lake and maybe buy a boat in summer. All of those things are more expensive and more importantly, would take away time at home with my family (my wife hates boats). Warhammer gives me something where I can be with my wife as she does her hobby (watching TV). I can paint and listen to whatever Food Network/reality TV she happens to be watching.

I can appreciate the fact that I am probably in a better position financially than a lot of people who play Warhammer (or would like to), and I can't imagine trying to start this hobby from scratch. The start-up cost is pretty daunting, especially to get up to a working 2500 point army. It doesn't help that most people starting out have probably never heard of barter town or the places to get discounted minis or sprues. Maybe we should make those more well-known somehow.

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  squalie on Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:06 pm

I agree with what you wrote as well Don, but I also agree that GW prices are high. That said, I very rarely buy anything new unless I have gift certificates or in-store credit to bring those prices down. I make due with what I have and save for what I want.

I'm glad you wrote this. GW prices are high - but compared to what? What should prices be? Whatever the "common man" can afford? My point is there is no guage as to what the models should cost. They cost what GW charges, as they are actually the barometer. There have been A LOT of smaller, private companies that have started with infinitely smaller fixed costs than GW has, therefore they can produce less expensive models. People often assume (and I read often) that since GW is so big they can purchase materials for MUCH cheaper than the independants...and that simply isn't true and just shows their ignorance of material costs. It actually isn't fair to say that GW should be cheaper because "company X" is selling more models for cheaper.

If I have big publicly traded company "A", I may buy materials for .80 a pound (arbitrary number), and the private company "B" buys it for $1.10, that savings in material cost doesn't even come close to making a difference in the MUCH larger operating costs of company "A".

Let me put it another way; If big company is buying materials for 25% cheaper than small company, but has an operating cost of 10 million compared to $250,000, due the infrastructure resources cost of big company, then there is no way that they can even match small company price. Meaning it is literally impossible from a Company stand point to beat the pricing of a smaller private company, as the smaller company has literally a negligible cost (in relation to big business). Hell, often (and I've watched tour videos of Mierce) theres just a few dudes, ONE sculptor and 1200 s.f. of rental space. The tour is 2 minutes and you see 4 people as the owner is also the shipping department and secretary. Very Happy

I'll also say this a thousand times; I'm NOT defending GW as they make some head scratching decisions, but they are big enough now that they are beholden to a stock number that dictates a lot of their decisions (unfortunately). Recently GW appointed a new CEO, who hasn't even started yet (they didn't even respond to my resume) and this much younger fellow MAY have a different perspective than Kirby did but at the end of the day his first priority is stock price. He may never even step into the Eavy Metal painting department as that is nowhere near his directive, and THAT'S the failing of larger companies. They get detached and forget what got them there in the first place (my own theory anyways).

If I didn't do Warhammer I'd have a different hobby which would inevitably be more expensive. I'd take more ski trips in winter or play hockey, more trips to the lake and maybe buy a boat in summer. All of those things are more expensive

This has always been my main point. Thanks Nathan!

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  ScottRadom on Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:18 pm

The start up costs are high, but what isn't? To go from absolute zero where a dude has absolutely no hobby materials and needs knives brushes paints etc is about what, lets say 500$ for a more than minimum set up. The books etc. for the army including cards and stuff, lets say 400 which is more than enough. Models for a 2500 point army are 600-700$ that ballpark? Depends on the army but that should do right? Now this doesn't get you any terrain to play on or space but happily we have access to the den so that cost need not be factored in but if it where you can make a 4ft by 6ft table with trees and hill terrain and stuff for less than 200$. So not cheap but I think 2 grand really has you covered safely from the word go to 2500 points.

So that's not peanuts. I think just doing the hobby portion it's about 6 months to a year to get an army painted up depending on your time commitment and what you're striving to achieve. The cost to maintain a warhammer army is completely up to the player but assuming updating rulebooks and updating some mini's it can average maybe 300$ a year just buying army books, a little new paint and the odd blister of a new character or so that comes out. Of course a new army is always an alluring prospect but that's up to you.

So compared to what do we call the hobby expensive? Whats a new computer cost and how much annually to keep it on the cutting edge for new games? I don't know the answer to this. Golf? No sir. Hockey? Don't think so. Drawing is a pretty damn cheap hobby I think. Writing, all that kind of thing but I think Warhammer is expensive because we want what GW is selling.

On a side note when I quit playing Warhammer I thought my mini expenses would go down as I wasn't obliged to buy boxes of mini's for army projects any longer. Wrong. When you're locked into a game and an army or two there is really only so many mini's that pop up on your to buy radar. An Ogre Kingdoms big old stonetusk might look super awesome and you might like it but if you weren't interested in the army you wouldn't buy it. NO SUCH restrictions when you're just looking to paint mini's. Man... they're a lot of damn cool mini's out there and I didn't/don't exercise much restraint. The lead mountain grows!

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  Carson on Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:19 pm

Warhammer is expensive if you have no money. For those that work, its a hobby just like any other.
I spend about 1500 a year on the hobby as I'm a collector with the game. I like it all, and want it all. Is that a lot? No....not anywhere near what some people spend on Hobbies. My brother has a 20,000$ boat that he uses maybe 10 times a year. I wouldn't be able to even hazard a guess out of how much time I get with my hobby. Everyday for sure!

The problem is looking at a model kit that costs 70 and saying to yourself.....that's a lot of fucking money for some plastic without thinking how much value you'll get for years to come with that plastic.

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  Galadros on Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:55 pm

Well first off, posting on warseer to get an intellectual conversation is fairy tale. But you know that now, I'm sure. The internet is full of whingers and bawlers, but warseer seems to breed more than most. Anyway, on to your discussion topic...
Your stance is fair, that all hobbies are expensive. Warhammer is far from the most expensive, and the rewards more than make up for the cost. It seems that we can all agree on this.
The other stance that comes up in that thread is the concept of competitive cost of Warhammer. I think it was a fellow calling himself Reinholt who said this the best, pointing out that players are voiceing their opinion of cost out of fear that GW will lose market strength to competitors. Consequently, Warhammer may lose player volume worldwide and thus not be the kind of game you can just show up at a club day and get in a game anymore. The fears of many (myself included) is that the startup cost prohibits new hobbyists.

Most of the comparisons are to miniature games that use a much lower model count, so it may seem unfair to crucify Warhammer based on cost per model. In fact, I don't think there is that much gap in cost/ model comparison to other companies that create similar scale and quality. (I've spent $90 on 10 Malifaux models). Warhammer requires the most models of any widely played miniature game (fact), so playing a full game will inevitably be more investment. Anyone looking to play this game will realize this quickly and may turn to other games instead. Those may come back to Warhammer in the future (after they've played others, gathered thier hobby supplies, and gained experience as modellers/painters). Many may not. This is my concern relating to cost.
The solution would be to make the startup cost easier. I feel a starter army for each faction would be worthy. Island of Blood is certainly good value, but limited to Skaven or Elves. The ability to buy the digest sized rulebook seperately would be wonderful. This is where I want to deflect the talk of models that cost too much. to hobby supplies that cost too much. Paint sets aren't entirely unreasonable, but could be less for the sake of the newbie (us vets aren't buying a paint set anyway). GW tools are waaaay out of line, though. Clippers, files, glue, knives, are all beyond reasonable.  So, I can't help but feel they are taking advantage of consumer ignorance at startup time. Do any vets even use the GW versions of these products?

So, in conclusion, Warhammer IS the most expensive of comparative miniature gaming hobbies (by virtue of model count). To avoid losing hobbyists to other games, it may need to have a lesser entry cost to retain them. A tough thing to balance. How would we do this?

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  ScottRadom on Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:29 pm

It's a tough thing. I think the core target market needs to be appropriately aimed at 25+ year olds and stop kidding themselves that's its a teenagers game. Besides which I think if you just make something really cool appropriately motivated people will like it because it's well done. Lets just embrace the adult nature of the source material and the pricing and be done with that!

I think that the idea of starter kits actually introduces more of a barrier to entry in the hobby then picking up the components individually. A big hobby box of brushes, clippers, glue, and starter paints will costs lots. 100$ plus. Picking the same items off the shelf will do the same thing of course but I find it easier to sell 10 items at $10 each then a single "you must by this" box at $100. Just a mental thing that the customer is still retaingin control and getting exactly what they want and need and not just the stuff that someone else put in a box for them. That's the way I see it anyway.

My other question is about the game as a whole. Is Warhammer dying? If so is it just Warhammer or mini gaming as a whole? I have no feel of the global pulse on this thing. I know locally 40K is really hurting as the core of that community logged out. Entirely out of frustration with the changes to the game. Not really a price thing. I hear all the doom and gloom that GW is losing money and this and that but is it true? And is it just them, or an entire industry that's taking a beating?

Me I'd like to see a well done in between scale of Warhammer. Not an individual Skirmish game but a smaller warband level that used individual character models and sort of units that would be more appropriately sized around what comes in a box of GW plastics. Maybe a game that let me play a smaller more narrative version of warhammer with 20-30 mini's. It's a great way to start a smaller painting project, a gateway to a new army, and of course a new way to justifying buying new miniatures.

It would seem to me to be a great way to help introduce new players to GW IP with a smaller barrier to entry and open up possibilities.

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  nathanr on Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:01 am

I don't think Warhammer is dying off. On the contrary, I think the End Times series has rejuvenated it. The Khaine book sold out within minutes of it going on preorder. Both Nagash and Glotkin sold out as well. Our league hasn't been this big in a while and judging by onslaught in Edmonton, Fantasy is stronger than 40K right now.

That said, there are a lot of decent miniatures games out there and more are on the way. Seems every mom and pop mini company has a game "in development" and that dilutes the player base a bit.

I agree with your thoughts on a smaller-scale warhammer, I feel like that might already exist somewhat with Mordheim but they could maybe combine that with Warhammer to get something in-between. Or they could put a little more support behind Mordheim and really get people interested in it as a gateway into Warhammer.

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  Kal on Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:18 am

Im not even going to get into most of this convo but i will say the initial cost of this hobby is pritty high but again if its what you wana do your gonna find a way to do it. My first army i was lucky enough to buy off Don and it was a 2500 pt Beastman army that i got for quite a good price. I had to save up for a couple of months first obvi but he was good enough to hold onto it. I know Don and i have talked many a time on this that he would love to race Porches (or Ferrari's i forget which) but he can't afford it so he doesn't. Same goes for all other hobbies. Everything has a cost / sacrifice I don't go out every weekend and drink like alot of my friends. So i choose to spend that money on tiny plastic men... Very Happy

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Re: Something I posted on Warseer years ago.....

Post  squalie on Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:07 pm

Back when there were no plastics baby. You wanted an Orc army? 9 bucks for a blister of three. And that's in 1989 dollars being spent by a kid who was in Elementary school. But I wanted it so I saved and made it a priority.

Scott, I'm glad you brought this up as I actually forgot about this. I still remember going into Mind Games, or Tramps back in the day and paying $14 for a blister of 2 Bloodletters. Now admittedly, I didn't need a unit of 40 - only a unit of 16-20, but that's still the same, or more, than today. My Khorne or Nurgle Daemon army back then was actually quite expensive. Greater Daemons were still $50, back in 95?

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