Tomb Kings!

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Tomb Kings!

Post  Kal on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:29 am

So I'm sure this wont be a super popular topic, but Don's comment on my battle report got me thinking, as I always like arguing. So Thy (My?) Will Be Done gives the unit the WS of the Tomb King, which is a pathetic 6 (Same as my manly men Chaos Chosen), i HATE weapon skill 6 it is literally my most hated WS. because combat wise it ONLY ever lets you hit on a 3. never gets any better and since 90% of the things in Warhammer have a minimum weapon skill of 3 (i can only think of Skele's, Rat Slaves, Zombies, and Gnobblers?) it doesn't help you defensively because u still get hit on 4's and offensively you are only hitting on 3's so yet again against most weapon skills of 3 a weapon skill of 4 is more than enough, making weapon skill 6 a waste. So because im actually enjoying tomb king alot, no idea why ive been thinking around with lists. a naked (?) Tomb King is worth 170 pts, and he has to be your general. But he grants Weapon Skill 6. When a Necrotech? (one of the dudes that builds the constructs and gives them a 6+ save) is only worth 60 points! and he doesn't have to be a general. and he grants w/e unit he is in HATRED! So if the unit is hitting at WS 3 vs WS 3 with hatred they are going to get alot more damage then just hitting on 3's with WS 6. and Defensively they are the same. Plus with FEAR they have a chance of making your opponent WS 1 so yet again WS 3 vs WS 1 is the same offensively and defensively as WS 6 vs WS 1 would be. Now don't get me wrong im GREEDY so my fun lists have a Tomb Prince as WS 5 with a Necrotech, so hatred and hitting on 3's and still Naked both of those come out to the same as a naked Tomb King... So this is my argument... Not sure if i had a point... YOUR MOVE DON! Very Happy

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  nathanr on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:41 am

I think you've rambled your way to a somewhat logical and efficient conclusion. Well done! The Tomb Prince and Necrotech seems to me to be the way to go. I might be missing a load of other special rules but against WS3 and 4 opponents you'll get the same results. However, against things that are WS5 (elite elves, dwarfs, chaos daemons, warriors of chaos, etc.) you'll be hitting on 4's and you'll probably be wishing you had WS6.

That said, I don't play Tomb Kings and I don't know all their tricks. I'll let Don handle that.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kuyp on Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:29 pm

Sean just stop whining, if you want to know the secret, take a prince and leave the king athome. End of story. Yes there are a lot of units that have ws 5, wariors, elves, and some elites. Now consider the small 5 pojnts you pay for a skeleton , now take 40 of them ad in a prince with a gw (110 pts if i remember right). You now have a ld 9 unit of fearless stalwart wariors with ws 5 at a mere 310 pts, did i mention the come back from the dead, again!

Its not a matter of just comparing stats, thats a fools errand. Its all about what each unit brings to the army. Skeletons dont kill things its just not their job. Their job is to slow things down, meaning the less your opponent hits you the less wounds he can cause. No one cares about a bunch of s3 attacks at ws 2, and being able to reroll them is not that much better.

All i am trying to say here is tomb prince good, tomb king better but not enough to justify the points

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kal on Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:38 pm

Woah im not whining Dom just pointing some stuff out. Im rocking Tomb Guard not generic skele's so str 5 with rerolls aye ill take that. The skele's also can't take GW's just Spears or HWS. (i think?)

The game is totally about comparing stats, thats literally the whole game XD. + dice. If anything has an attack value its job is to kill something. Not my fault if there not great at it.

My point was i think that since Kings are only WS 6 i don't love either of them. and for 60 pts id rather have hatred for offence.

Nathan - Thanks! my ramblings do occasionally come to some sort of point / conclusion. Very Happy. I had also thought about the more elite units in the game, this is where a king could come in handy. Rock him with a Tomb Herald to absorb some wounds. since the kings have 4 wounds i thought that it was one of the only characters that could benefit from a Health Pot. with a 4+ ward and tough 5 he SHOULD beable to stick around long enough vs elites.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kuyp on Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:52 pm

A king is a great option for tomb guard. You want them to be doing the most damage they can and what better way than ensuring they hit on threes? Sure 5 is probably going to be on par with most thjngs but you want to be better than par.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  squalie on Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:34 pm

WAAAAAAAH - HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Once again Sean's an idiot! Very Happy   There is a good reason you're never invited to parties, and you ARE whining - as it's what you do Captain pouty lip.  Wink

 Truthfully though, I get what you're trying to say and Nathan is being his super nice self - which is why we keep him around, he gets the rest of us assholes out of trouble.

 I actually prefer the King, because he is after all - a KING and more "manly".  He also has 50 more points (also 4 wounds) to spend on defence as the feller needs to stay alive to give the WS 6 to the unit.  A Prince will be targeted right away and often drops before the TG go on init 3.  The Necrotect is a common addition, but again, he can be killed off as he's even squishier, before the unit would even get hatred.  The units that will invariably run into a TG unit will often have a beefy character that will probably hit first and would kill your Prince "Hero".  

 I just went with  a Tomb King with 2+ armour, 4+ ward, Great weapon.  That just seems how a Tomb King would strut his stuff.  I also put a Necrotect in with the Opal amulet as he really only needs to survive the first round and after that the Hatreds gone anyways.  It also hedges your bets as to what character your opponent wants to kill - unless he can kill both.  If he does that, you just remind him that you're playing Tomb Kings and you weren't supposed to win anyways. Laughing

 NOW, with the undead legion rules, you can put a Tomb King in a unit of Grave Guard, give them the Barrow banner and you'll have a unit of strength 6 guys hitting on 2+....for cheaper.  affraid

*changing topic*

 I should also mention that I'm reading through the Nagash book.  On page 484 are the rules for making armies.  The section starts with:

CHOOSING AN ARMY

 This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer.  Just as the lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army.

 Thats' exactly how it's written in the book, including bold print, and then goes on to explain the different percentages for Lords, Heroes, etc.  It does NOT talk about Undead armies, it talks about all armies in the end times.  I do not think this a campaign and nothing in the rules leads me to believe that either.  Even in the White Dwarf, they make a comment about the Dwarf army getting up to 50% Lords, etc.

 Just an FYI.


Last edited by squalie on Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : One too many letters....)

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Carson on Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:18 pm

Ok.............................................but regardless, noone is allowed to use them for toonCon.......cuz I said. And I's the chief for this tournament.



Its just because noone has had the opportunity to play against nagash and the lore of undeath yet.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  bluepeople on Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:57 pm

Also Sean you may want to consider the Dragonbane Helm on your tomb king. a 2+ save vs flaming attacks would be well worth the investment to protect your investment from pesky flammable weakness.

Also get some Lore of light buffs in there to hopefully increase your initiative. In that case a halberd would be better on the Tomb King than the great weapon. and still at strength 6.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  squalie on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:00 pm

Carson wrote:Ok.............................................but regardless, noone is allowed to use them for toonCon.......cuz I said. And I's the chief for this tournament.



Its just because no one has had the opportunity to play against nagash and the lore of undeath yet.

I completely agree. Was just pointing this out for everyone's benefit.

After this weekend, my TK army is changing. I bought a few boxes of Morghasts and the Mortarch box to make Arkhan. Jeebus this end times is expensive... Sad

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  squalie on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:02 pm

bluepeople wrote:Also Sean you may want to consider the Dragonbane Helm on your tomb king.  a 2+ save vs flaming attacks would be well worth the investment to protect your investment from pesky flammable weakness.

Also get some Lore of light buffs in there to hopefully increase your initiative.  In that case a halberd would be better on the Tomb King than the great weapon.  and still at strength 6.

Can't have a Halberd. That would be a perfect choice, which is why GW doesn't allow it. Very Happy

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kal on Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:59 am

Ok maybe I’m getting a bad rep for whining but honestly this wasn’t even a little bit whining. I was just attempting to start a discussion about which benefits outweigh which. Hitting on 3’s or hitting on 4’s and rerolls. I get invited to parties I just never attend as they are usually outside my house and that seems a scary and foreign land. There is no trying involved i succeeded in what i set out to do. Agreed tho Nathan is SOOOPER nice, one day im gonna crack him and ure all gonna watch him hulk smash me, itll be a good time stay tuned. Aye rolling lists around i came to the conclusion that a king would be the way to go. Unless i could rock that special character “king” on the chariot. Weaponskill 7 to everything in 6” *drool* and he isn’t that over powered for 500 pts. Just normal 4+ ward with a weapon that acts like a flaming GW. I like your build on the King and Necrotech. I think that “werent’ supposed to win anyways” attitude with this army is partially why i like it. If my opponent gets all smack talky i can go woah buddy not my fault and point to my army and say their fault. They arn’t... MEN!

Dragon Helm a good idea Senior Justin (am i the only one that assumes all the Skaven are Mexicans? Honestly they breed like Mexicans so next time u have a game imagine them all with accents, it’ll be much more enjoyable)

OUUU can he Duel Weild Halberds DON?! Very Happy



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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  nathanr on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:34 am

It does seem a bit whiny to complain that your 5 point skeleton is "only" able to get WS 5 or 6. Only the most elite of the elite troops in the game have weaponskill 6. Normally for weaponskill 6 you're paying closer to 20 points a model. If your question was purely, what is better - hitting on 3's or 4's with reroll the answer is 4's with reroll by about 10%. But remember that you only get the rerolls for the first round of combat. The role of skeletons is not to fight just one round of combat, they are in it for the long haul so once you get past the first round hitting on 3's is going to quickly make up that 10% advantage.

Also, Dom had it right when he said this:

Kyup wrote:Its not a matter of just comparing stats, thats a fools errand. Its all about what each unit brings to the army. Skeletons dont kill things its just not their job. Their job is to slow things down, meaning the less your opponent hits you the less wounds he can cause. No one cares about a bunch of s3 attacks at ws 2, and being able to reroll them is not that much better.

If it was just about stats everyone would play Warriors of Chaos. You have to look past the stats and see the role that each unit can play in your overall strategy. Take my wood elf army's shooting phase for example. I've got glade guard with trueflight arrows to lay down a blanket of arrows that hit on 3's always, perfect for mowing down rank and file. I also have waywatchers who's arrows ignore armour saves as well as scouts and glade riders with poisoned arrows. The waywatchers are for picking off enemy heavy armour while the scouts and glade riders take out high toughness targets with their poison. If I purely looked at stats I'd take 20 waywatchers (best Ballistic Skill) and be on my merry way but there is a lot more to consider.

That's just one phase of the game, when I make an army I consider all the phases of the game (including deployment) and make an army that will compete in all of them.

And I have two young children Sean, you aint gonna crack me! There's nothing you could do that I haven't seen before.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kal on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:42 am

FIRST off people im not whining because i wouldn't put the Tomb King in a unit of 4 yes FOUR point skele's Wink he's rocking with some Tomb Guard, fuck those generic ass skeles back to the hole from from whence they came!

Wait u mean everyone doesn't want to play WoC? Silly Humans. I understand its not 100% about stats but its atleast 90%. Hell im incompetent and even I can push forward my warriors and win.

Ha Challenge Accepted Nathan! you will rue the day you ever challenged ... Eduardo Percival Sanchez III !!! (first two died in a lawn mower accident on the pent house balcony of a hotel in Las Vegas, dont ask)

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  nathanr on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:50 am

Tomb Guard are still fairly cheap for what they are, especially if they are boosted to WS6. They might not have the stats of a chaos warrior but they have arguably more uses in a game than warriors do. Warriors you push forward into whatever you set them up opposite to. Tomb guard you can use to smash, tarpit, intimidate, guard, pretty much whatever you want them to do other than shoot or cast spells (although they can be a good bunker for a wizard).

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kal on Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:01 am

Again not whining just point some of my own completely correct and logical conclusions out. The Tomb Guard cost as much as a HE Swordmaster. TG are only WS 3 generic with 1 attack. only advantage they have is T4. THAT being said im not saying they are bad or whining that they should be better, just saying. And sooo don't have more uses then a Chaos Warrior. Chaos warriors are 1 point more for a naked Warrior, which can Intimidate better, guard better, tarpit better by smashing face, have 2 attacks each. and can be a bunker for a wizard.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  nathanr on Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:08 am

Kal wrote:And sooo don't have more uses then a Chaos Warrior. Chaos warriors are 1 point more for a naked Warrior, which can Intimidate better, guard better, tarpit better by smashing face, have 2 attacks each. and can be a bunker for a wizard.

But they don't do any of those things. What are they guarding? Chaos wizards don't need bunkering. Chaos warriors are one of the least intimidating things in the warriors of chaos army and smashing face is not tarpitting. If I beat a chaos warrior unit in combat by more than 3 it will likely break and flee and I will pursue and kill it. One turn. If I hit a unit of tomb guard and beat it in combat it is still unbreakable and I will be stuck.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kal on Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:16 am

Ok fine you can have that point. but i still stand correct on the others. And if you beat a Chaos warrior unit by 3 they arn't doing it right and deserve to be run down. Plus They might be unbreakable but with the unstable rule and the fact they will lose combat by more then the Chaos Warriors will they will all die faster unless u add more and more which costs more points which again 40 Tomb Guard in a horde or bus will NOT tarpit as well as almost same point value (1 more point per) as 40 Warriors in a horde (which are also core) Plus warriors can march so they get where they wana go and can tarpit what they CHOOSE to tarpit.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  nathanr on Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:50 am

40 tomb guard in a horde will last longer than 40 warriors of chaos in a horde almost every time especially if they are being beaten in combat. Lets say I charge in with 20 cold one knights. I strike first with rerolls. I'm hitting on 4's so 3/4 of my 22 attacks will hit (Lets say 17) Of those 5/6 will hit and the ones that don't I get to re-roll so lets just say 16 wounds at S6 so your armour is gone. You strike back with your remaining 24 warriors getting 35 attacks hitting on 4 (18 hits) wounding on 2's with S5 so 15 wounds of which I save half (2+ armour becomes 4+) so I take 8 wounds. My cold ones hit with 20 S4 attacks, 10 hit, 5 wound, you save 2 so 3 more.

I charged, have a banner and did 19 wounds. You have a rank, a banner and did 8 wounds. I win by 11. Your warriors are fleeing. Maybe they are steadfast but they still have a chance of fleeing if you roll poorly. If that happens I will surely catch you and your 640 point unit is gone in one round of combat and I'm through your line and in your backfield.

The tomb guard are WS3 so I'm going to do more wounds to them. 19 hits means 18 wounds. Cold ones will do similar damage as they did to the warriors so I've done 21 wounds total. The tomb guard hit back with their 19 remaining models getting 10 hits and 8 wounds. Again I'll save half so 4 dead knights.

I charged, have a banner and did 21 wounds. You have a rank, a banner and did 4 wounds. I win by 17. After the crumble there are 2 tomb guard left that aren't going anywhere and my knights are sitting there with their charge load blown, vulnerable to flank and rear charges in the tomb king turn.

That's not even taking into account the fact that those tomb guard could have been led by a tomb king and have been WS6. That makes them a terrifying tarpit. Also, I've never seen a horde of 40 chaos warriors in an actual game.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kuyp on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:03 pm

Also Nathan the tonb guard are even better then the wariors in that instance because of killing blow. So one third of the wounds caused are not going to alow armour. Also the foot troops would have some parry saves

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  nathanr on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:09 pm

See those are things I did not think of.  That really helps the tomb guard's numbers and the presence of killing blow will make my cold one knights think twice about charging in which is something the warriors don't do (this is the intimidation I was talking about).

Edit: plus, since the chaos warriors are a point more each you could give the tomb guard the razor standard and have a unit that is the same number of points as the chaos warrior unit.  That would even up the odds even more.

Let's re-run the tomb guard combat now that I know some more things:

40 tomb guard with razor standard still take 21 wounds.  They still get 10 hits and 8 wounds but at least one of those is going to be a killing blow and the rest are at -3 to my armour so 5 more that's 6 wounds total.

As for parry saves, do both tomb guard and chaos warriors come naked with a hand weapon and shield?  If they do you can take 1/6 off of my wounds for both.  That would mean I did 16 wounds to the warriors (winning by 8 ) and 18 wounds to the tomb guard (now winning by 12).  The warriors are still fleeing and the tomb guard are still holding.


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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kal on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:22 pm

Didn't actually know Tomb Guard have killing blow... Interesting.

Meh end of the day we all have our opinions. i prefer my core Chaos Warriors to almost any other unit in the game. And would rather half the number of kitted out Warriors to similarly pointed Tomb Guard. But your math stands solid Nathan. but you forget i also roll like a rockstar with my warriors, so once u take that into account ive made all my saves, wounded with all my hits and made every rally test. Wink jk. But yes Tomb Guard would wreck face against cavalry with killing blow. but again movement 4 with no marching probably isn't going to beable to choose to charge any Knights. and as you said Knights would think twice about wanting to get into combat.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  nathanr on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:27 pm

Kal wrote: i prefer my core Chaos Warriors to almost any other unit in the game.

And rightly so, they are undoubtedly one of the strongest core units in the game. All I'm saying is don't discount a unit as inferior because it doesn't have the statline of a chaos warrior.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  squalie on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:37 pm

It's true we all have our opinions, it's just that yours are wrong. We actually bring facts into a debate which goes a looooong ways to changing opinions. Wink

Tomb Guard can now march by the way. Rebuttal? Now that they can march you don't need the movement banner, so you can give then the undying legion banner and keep bringing more back every magic phase.


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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  Kal on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:44 pm

squalie wrote:It's true we all have our opinions, it's just that yours are wrong. We actually bring facts into a debate which goes a looooong ways to changing opinions. Wink

 Tomb Guard can now march by the way. Rebuttal?  Now that they can march you don't need the movement banner, so you can give then the undying legion banner and keep bringing more back every magic phase.

 

well in that regard Don with the new lord allowances i can bring 3 kitted out Daemon Princes so ima just leave the Warriors at home Wink

Made a fun list with Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh Daemon princes each with a block of warriors to back them up. tri god list. looked fun.

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Re: Tomb Kings!

Post  nathanr on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:48 pm

fun... for who?

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