League rule changes?

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League rule changes?

Post  nathanr on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:03 am

With the new league approaching, some rule suggestions have been made.  I'd like people to weigh in with their opinions and we can hopefully make some decisions as to how to deal with these things.  If you'd like to add something to the list please feel free to do so either here or PM me and I'll add it to this first post:

1. Smaller point games should be worth less league points. - the argument here is that it is far easier to get more small point games in and the game as we know it is definitely not as balanced at a smaller point level.

2. Players should stick with one army throughout the league. - It is being argued that it is tough to gauge how well a player is doing if they are switching up armies throughout the league.

3. League length. - Did this past league run too long?

4. One person be in charge of collecting league fees and signing everyone up at the Den. - There has been some dispute and confusion over lost league fees and the Den's record-keeping ability has been called into question. This option has been proposed as a way to deal with this, and goes hand in hand with points 5 and 6.

5. Upping league fees to $20. - This point goes along with point 6 with the goal of giving us more flexibility and options as well as upping the prizes for the league winners

6. Using a portion of league fees to improve the terrain and gaming experience at the Den and within our league. - This point is only viable if 4 and 5 are approved. The goal would be to use a portion of the fees to pay for new terrain, and to possibly have some money available for tournament location rentals or prizes for supplementary contests/tournaments throughout the year

7. Remove or revise the ladder system. - It is being argued that the ladder system as it stands is not ideal. Major changes are possible but I'd like a majority opinion before I'm going to go down that road.

8. Revise playoff qualifications. - There is the possibility for more spots, different ways of getting into playoffs, creating a bracket-type system, the sky is the limit


Last edited by nathanr on Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Additional changes suggested)

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  decker_cky on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:23 am

1. I like this in general, but it might not be compatible with 2 playoff spots being determined by the top averages. It would be possible to work around this by separating scores, so you have points for W/D/L (including massacre or not), then having a bonus of a few points for playing a game at of at least 2500 pts and the bonus for painting. Have the latter two bonuses factor into the total points (maybe still factor paint into average, to encourage people to get things painted more). I also think there should be a bonus for playing a variety of players (eg, the 3 players who have played the most different opponents throughout the league gain +10 pts or something). Separating W/D/L from the other points lets smaller games compete for most of the spots without penalty, but makes it difficult to take the spot for the most points.

2. I don't agree with this. The league is supposed to entice people to play more, right? Some people like swapping around armies lots. I don't consider army switching to be a huge advantage (unless they were using a weak army and switch to something better). The most important consideration should be fun, and limiting or punishing army switching is going to stop people from doing what gives them the most fun in gaming. I think some limit is fair...maybe say you have to have played at least 5 games with an army (including tournament games) for it to be used in playoffs.

3. I'm not too fussed either way with this. Usually comes down to people's availability and it wanes at different times.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Carson on Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:49 pm

I like longer running leagues actually. I agree with point 1.of course and don't want to stop players from using other armies but want those games to count less.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  nathanr on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:04 pm

Here's what I think:

1. This is tricky. I agree that it could be unfair if someone was playing a TON of small point games for the sole purpose of racking up points. To be completely honest I feel bad that I essentially did this at Don's last game day. How about I add a -2 modifier to the results for smaller point games? Also, you can't move on the ladder from the results of a small point game. This would enable people who are starting out with smaller armies to participate and get league points but it also encourages people to grow their armies to the larger point level.

2. Especially in a long league it is tough to restrict people to a single army. What if people specify an army at the start of the league and I keep track of their averages with that army only. To qualify for playoffs they need to have a minimum of 6 games with that army and it will also be their army for playoffs. People can switch the army that is being tracked once during the league but their average will not be reset and they will need to play at least 6 games with the new army to qualify for playoffs.

3. I'll try to keep the league to a maximum of 6 months. If people would like shorter leagues I can do that too.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Kal on Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:36 pm

1. Yeah I agree smaller army = smaller points. or else we could all just run 500 pt armies and have ALL OF THE POINTS

2. I completely disagree here. I don't think we should sign up with an army at all. We should sign up as a PLAYER and once the playoffs are announced then the viable people must then lock in there armies, and NO changes. We all play at different skill levels regardless of the armies, we are fighting the player not the army books, we are all different. If anything maybe allow us to sign up with 3 armies, letting people know hey so and so may be bringing any one of these. imo.

3. Maybe a touch too long. Maybe a set date would be nice. 4-6 months is good lets us get 2-3 leagues in a year....

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Carson on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:05 pm

Seans on crack for point2. your just wrong....face it

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Mhael on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:27 pm

1. I disagree. For instance in nathan's example he was starting a new army. I feel this will discourage new players at the cost of starting a new army or build. If we restrict ladder movement to only 2500 pts it will encourage people to get to 2500pts and allow them to play games with a fully painted army while they are building up. We could just do away with most points gets a playoff spot to avoid the losing your way to the finals scenario. Best average better encapsulates good generalling so maybe increase these entries.
2. I disagree. We havent really played 8th edition to its fullest. We could implement a max of 3 games could be played by an ally army identified at league sign up. We could also tailor some ally rules to really represent hiring an army to fight your battles.
3. I like the longer league as there is more opportunity to play the distance guys and sometimes life just gets in the way of hobbying.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Kuyp on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:00 am

My thoughts, first off we should not give less points for smaller games, for the most part we all play 2500pts, if you want to play a small game it should be all the power to you.

second people should sing up with an army and that your army for league play. if you play with another army great but don't expect to get points or affect your win loss ratio or even move up or down the ladder. id say if you start with an army finish with said army. if you sell that army or get bored and want to play with another army do so at your own risk. i feel it takes away from how you actually did by playing with different armies.

sean was saying its the player not the army your facing, that's a complete load. say i sign up with my Wood elves and then play with warriors. you mean to tell me that's not an obvious difference ???

I'm torn between long leagues and short ones, i like the idea of a league running longer because then you get a wider spread of games and it really shows who is number one. short leagues are good though because of our negative penalties for cumulative games, it stops us from getting no points for beating a regular foe.

I think we should
1. run leagues for six months ( 2 a year)
2. designate some one in charge of our league fees and sing-up sheet rather than have it at the den
3. have A (singular) league army, that's it, no switching allowed ! done
4. increase our league fees to $20. make the prize worth winning !
5.get rid of the negative points for cumulative games, if i crush someone i want full recognition not 2 pts, points are only one way to get to playoffs anyway.
6. bacon
7. remove the ladder system.
8. make it so top five spots are in playoffs.

The last point id like to see happen. id rather give players top spot based on some sort of rating system that takes in account win % and points cumulative. id much rather see this because i feel our ladder can be a bit unfair at times.

what we could do is some thing like win % is worth 60-65% and points are worth 40-35%. players are then place in assending order based on the total average of what they get from a game. we could even take like 10-15% for what kind of a victory it was. say two people have the same win ratio but player one crushed his opponent 90% of the time where player two only crushed his opponent 20% of the time.

My Two cents

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Kuyp on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:11 am

also, another idea we could / should ? (which ever) take a portion of our league fees to re invest in to the den if form of new games workshop quality terrain, new tables / chairs, that kind of stuff. why should we do that ? cause lets face it the only people who are going to improve our games and tournaments are us. the money would go further as well if Darren used it at cost rather than markup prices. for sure something that would have to thoroughly be discussed.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  decker_cky on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:35 am

One thing I noticed is that playoffs are pretty small with only 5 players. I think 6 or 7 players could easily fit (adding 2nd in points and possibly 3rd on ladder). Using a traditional bracket generator seeding as follows:

Ladder 1
Average 1
Ladder 2
Points 1
Average 2
Points 2

Gives one of these two brackets, which I think give a fair distribution similar to how rankings currently work. It also entices Ladder 2 to go after Ladder 1, which I think is missing from the current system.

Without ladder 3:


With ladder 3:


With either of those setups, I'd give a point for qualifying, a point for making the finals, and a point for winning overall.

Kuyp wrote:sean was saying its the player not the army your facing, that's a complete load. say i sign up with my Wood elves and then play with warriors. you mean to tell me that's not an obvious difference ???

I agree with sean. Obviously some armies are stronger than others, but it mostly comes down to the player. Further, all locking people to one army does is makes that initial choice determine the army power distribution. If we assume our group becomes a bunch of power gamers, then everyone chooses either current power armies, or armies they expect to become power armies in the near future. Your proposal just handicaps anyone who doesn't take a power army at the start.

All switching armies should do theoretically is allow you an advantage in flexibility. Why not deal with that flexibility?

How about a rule about setting up games - if you offer to set up games and have multiple armies, you have to list the army. "Would someone like to play my orcs at 2500 pts on Saturday?" If a player is accepting and has multiple armies, they have to give the choice of which army to their opponents (should include that in their signature, or in the post). You have to add an army to the list once you've played with it in the league, and cannot remove it unless you've sold it.

For any open gaming day, you can only bring one army.

This lets people switch around armies a bit, but actually makes it a disadvantage.

If the league was 3 months, then a single army is fine. Over 6 months, you get bored of armies, you may not like playing an army that you started for the league, etc... Things happen.

That's not to mention that I doubt if you look at the W/L record in our league, there's any relationship between army switching and success. You gain a lot by figuring out things with your army and learning the nuances by playing them consistently.

Kuyp wrote:also, another idea we could / should ? (which ever) take a portion of our league fees to re invest in to the den if form of new games workshop quality terrain, new tables / chairs, that kind of stuff. why should we do that ? cause lets face it the only people who are going to improve our games and tournaments are us. the money would go further as well if Darren used it at cost rather than markup prices. for sure something that would have to thoroughly be discussed.

I agree with this strongly. There's a few battlefield in a box terrain pieces that would be great to add to the tables (swamps, rivers), as well as some GW things like buildings and fences (too bad GW doesn't make the fortified manor anymore).

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  nathanr on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:49 am

I like your passion Dom. I'll go through your list item by item:

1. This is what I was thinking. Maybe hold off on starting the new league until June 1 and run it until December.

2. I love the idea of someone being in charge of collecting league fees. More on this later.

3. Especially with longer leagues I think some allowances should be made for allowing people to play games with more than one army. I think there is some middle ground to be found on this.

4. I also like the higher league fees but I don't want to price anyone out (although $20 twice a year is hardly going to break anyone's budget). Again, more on this later.

5. This league I did not apply negative modifiers for playing the same person more than once and I will continue to not track that. It made recording too complicated.

6. I agree. Also, thick-cut bacon.

7. We can do away with the ladder but I want a clear majority to be in favor of it before I make a change that drastic. If we do go ahead with it I'm also going to want us to come up with a good way of ranking.

8. This comes down to finding a way to make it possible for anyone to make playoffs. Right now I think we have a decent system in place:
- Top two on the ladder are accessible to everyone. Even the guy at the bottom with a terrible record can win their way in through a well-timed wildcard challenge. Everyone loves the underdog story and come playoffs anything can happen.
- Top two averages allow the best to earn their spots
- Top points gives credit to the people who keep the league alive by getting in the most games. Plus, you can't get the top points in the league by losing every game so this is a tough one to earn.
I think if league fees are increased and we change the playoff entry requirements it will deter new people from joining the league and possibly alienate some current members. I may be wrong and I would like to hear other opinions on this.

Now, I promised more on the league fees. I say we do the collecting of the money ourselves through a designated person (you?) and then that person pays and signs everyone up at the Den. If we up the fee to $20, we then need to decide how to break up that money. Say we have 12 people in the league. That's $240 every 6 months. If we use $100 for prizes (winner gets $60, second place gets $40 or some other way of doing it) then that's $140 per 6 months for improvement. That'll go a long way especially if we are managing it ourselves and not necessarily going through Darren at the Den. We can even save some of it for venue rental if we want to hold a tournament at a bigger location.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Kal on Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:12 am

Kuyp wrote:sean was saying its the player not the army your facing, that's a complete load. say i sign up with my Wood elves and then play with warriors. you mean to tell me that's not an obvious difference ???  
 
My point here is simply this its the player not the army, every army has hard and soft choices, some people tend to lean towards one style in all armies not just some. I just think its the way most stuff is done. whenever i join a game tourney for games like League of Legends or a FPS game or anything of the sort. the enemy team isn't forced to pick the same characters or same weapons each time. idk just my thought on it, i agree with the it helps when people are buying new armies, i will not have dwarfs built and ready till about half way through the league, id like to play and sign up with them. and have just spent alot of money on them. but for league start all ill have is Empire. idk. If we are going to limit armies for the whole league then we mine as well make everyone stay with the same list as well. We'd be a step away from that
 
I agree on point #6 more bacon. In some way the league has been lacking alot in the Bacon area.

Nathans Post while i was typing ::::

I agree with upping the league fee. Especially if we run for 6 months.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  nathanr on Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:52 pm

Sean, I hear what you are saying and I agree that there should be some allowance to be able to play what army you want. My first post on this may need some clarifications:

nathanr wrote:2. Especially in a long league it is tough to restrict people to a single army. What if people specify an army at the start of the league and I keep track of their averages with that army only. To qualify for playoffs they need to have a minimum of 6 games with that army and it will also be their army for playoffs. People can switch the army that is being tracked once during the league but their average will not be reset and they will need to play at least 6 games with the new army to qualify for playoffs.

By this I didn't mean that you can't play games with other armies. You could even gain league points this way and possibly qualify for playoffs by gaining the most points or moving up the ladder. Lets use an example:

Dom signs up with Wood Elves:
- He plays 6 games with wood elves and does quite well, ending up with an average of 6.40 only behind Sean who managed to average 8.00 with his Warriors of Chaos
- He also plays 12 other games and earns 128 league points which is the most of everyone
- He manages to work his way up the ladder through the results of his 18 games and ends up in the #2 ladder spot.

He has qualified for playoffs 3 in three different ways, only one of which was restricted by his army choice. He now goes into playoffs using wood elves knowing how well he ranks up with that army against the others who's averages are also based on their playoff armies.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Kal on Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:30 pm

Ok... So just the averages are based off the main army but the points are for all? See i get that u just cant use big words and u gotta spell it out for me Smile. I like that that is good. And i like my average with my WoC. Wayyy higher then my current one haha!

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Mhael on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:33 pm

Sean your average should be the same no...you dont play the army you play the man so equal genaralling means army choice doesnt have any effect on percentages...unless you are redacting your earlier surmisations.

I vote to be president of bacon and bacon related topics

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  decker_cky on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:43 pm

I think there's some middle ground possible. I think this would work without adding much to Nathan's excel charts too.

How about this?

Highest average - calculated separately for each army. Only the army that you've played most often can qualify for playoff spots.

Ladder - Must declare an army. You can change armies, but it must be reported on the thread, and you drop by 4 or 5 slots to do so (you can tell your opponent then report it on the thread so long as you told them before the game - make sure it's clear on the report). This drop will drop you out of even the top spots. To move up on the ladder, you must be using the declared army. When you lose a game that would move you down the ladder, you move down regardless of the army you're playing.

Most points - Total of all games and all armies is calculated.

For playoffs, if you qualified with highest average or ladder, you must use that army (and must have had at least 6 games). For most points, you can use any army that you played at least 6 games with, but it must be declared publicly before playoffs actually commence, so others can take that into account for list creation.

So you can play lots of games with different armies without much restriction, but many playoff spots will be race dependent. Majority on the average makes you play with that army the most, so you can't just camp on a high score then play games with other armies.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  decker_cky on Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:54 pm

I posted that then almost immediately realized that the highest average suggestion would create a potential 'army shopping' issue. Revised suggestion:

Highest average - calculated as a combined totals for all armies, but you qualify for playoff spots with the army you played most often.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Carson on Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:44 pm

Its much easier if you allow multiple armies but limit playoff entry to the army you signed up with. For myself, I prefer to play a single army over the course of a league and seeing how I do. I have occasionally played other armies but really never expected to garner points form them.

All in All, allow multiple armies, but limit playoffs to the sign-up army.

20$ entry fee and a 6 month league sounds great. I don't think you want to wait until June to start the next one though......momentum is pretty big.

one of us should administer the league sign-up and fees.

The reason on limiting smaller point games is not to discourage that play but prevent the massive accumulation of points. Lets face it, you can hammer out 3, 1500pt games in the time it takes to play 1, 2500pt game.

We still have a small league in numbers, I don't like the CFL approach and have everyone make the playoffs, keep it as a hard to get entry with points, averages, and spots.

I've seen league go crazy with massive rules so we need to be careful and keep things as simple as possible.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  nathanr on Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:29 am

We've heard a lot of opinions, and I think we've come up with a lot of ideas, mostly good.  I'll go through the list in the order they were presented in the first post of this thread:

1. Smaller point games should be worth less league points

For the upcoming league, games played at less than 2500 points will be subject to a -2 point modifier (note that you can not score less than 2 points for a game regardless of modifiers)

2. Players should stick with one army throughout the league.

For the upcoming league, players will sign up with an army.  They are not limited to using this army only but any games played with a different army than the one they signed up with will be subject to a -1 point modifier. The army that is signed up with will also be the army used in the playoffs.

3. League length.

The upcoming league will run 6 months.  The starting date for the league will be April 4 which means the end date will be October 3.

4. One person be in charge of collecting league fees and signing everyone up at the Den.

One person will be in charge of collecting league fees and signing everyone up.  Any volunteers?  Laughing 

5. Upping league fees to $20.

The league fee will be $20, please do not pay this fee at the Den.  Instead pay the person who is in charge of collecting league fees.

6. Using a portion of league fees to improve the terrain and gaming experience at the Den and within our league.

This is something we will need to talk more about once we see how points 4 and 5 work out.

7. Remove or revise the ladder system.

The ladder system will not change at this time, other than people will be able to challenge within 3 spots instead of 2 in order to promote more ladder movement.

8. Revise playoff qualifications.

These will stay as they are at this time.

If anyone has any major objections to these rules please bring them up now rather than later.  We will revisit the league rules again at the end of this league and see if we need to change anything or revise any of the rules.  Thanks to everyone who gave their opinions, I appreciate your feedback.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Mhael on Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:48 pm

Is there a way to improve and track our games. It must be a pain to have to go back through everything to determine what game happened at what time etc. Is there a change to the format of how we report. Say one heading for narrative reporting and one for statistical info?

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  nathanr on Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:23 am

I was going to bring that up Andre, thanks for reminding me! When I set up the new league reporting thread I'm going to lay out how id like games to be reported. I'll set it up so that you can just copy and paste it and then fill out the details. If you'd like to add a narrative you can do so AFTER all the info that I need.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Kal on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:02 am

Sounds good to me sirs! and it might even make your job a tad easier nathan lol.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  bluepeople on Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:24 am

I concur; a template that could be copy and paste then filled out would be helpful.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  squalie on Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:22 am

I had a big post and then this site stalled and I lost it.  &$%#&! hate this site set up sometimes.....

 Anyways, to briefly recap:

1. Smaller point games should be worth less league points. - the argument here is that it is far easier to get more small point games in and the game as we know it is definitely not as balanced at a smaller point level.

 I think games should be 2500 as they pretty much always have been.  It works and it's simple.

2. Players should stick with one army throughout the league. - It is being argued that it is tough to gauge how well a player is doing if they are switching up armies throughout the league.

 I don't really have a Dog in this fight as I'll usually stick with one army anyways.

3. League length. - Did this past league run too long?

 Makes zero difference to me.  Let's just play games.  Very Happy 

4. One person be in charge of collecting league fees and signing everyone up at the Den. - There has been some dispute and confusion over lost league fees and the Den's record-keeping ability has been called into question. This option has been proposed as a way to deal with this, and goes hand in hand with points 5 and 6.

 Even though I live out of town, I will offer to collect and be responsible for the fees.

5. Upping league fees to $20. - This point goes along with point 6 with the goal of giving us more flexibility and options as well as upping the prizes for the league winners

 I'm not against raising it.  More terrain, better prize amounts, etc.  Fine either way.

6. Using a portion of league fees to improve the terrain and gaming experience at the Den and within our league. - This point is only viable if 4 and 5 are approved. The goal would be to use a portion of the fees to pay for new terrain, and to possibly have some money available for tournament location rentals or prizes for supplementary contests/tournaments throughout the year

 See above

7. Remove or revise the ladder system. - It is being argued that the ladder system as it stands is not ideal. Major changes are possible but I'd like a majority opinion before I'm going to go down that road.

I have never challenged, Wild carded, etc.  I play games and others tell me if I'm in the playoffs and when it's time to change armies for next league.  No opinion on this whatsoever.

8. Revise playoff qualifications. - There is the possibility for more spots, different ways of getting into playoffs, creating a bracket-type system, the sky is the limit

OK.

 Carson is completely correct in all points in his post.

 Clark likes charts.

 Nathan is a nice man.

 Dom is mostly right in HIS post (except for getting rid of the negative points in cumulative games), and should get a ruler of the universe badge for one month as more Bacon is the smartest thing mentioned in this thread...by far.

I like Andre. I love lamp.

 Sean, is 90% wrong in pretty much everything he has said.  Even in things not related to Warhammer.

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Re: League rule changes?

Post  Mhael on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:44 pm

Lmfao

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Re: League rule changes?

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