Unmodified Leadership

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Unmodified Leadership

Post  decker_cky on Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:06 pm

Ok, since there's always confusion on unmodified leadership, I want to get clarification on how our gaming group wants to play this. My reading is that it's a bit of a silly situation where in general, it's just the highest leadership number in a unit:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

However, there's another FAQ that provides exceptions for at least Spirit Leech and Mindrazor:

Q: Do units benefit from their Generalís Inspiring Presence for the
purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or
Okkamís Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180060a_WARHAMMER_RULEBOOK_v1.8_APRIL13.pdf

So what do people think? Does inspiring presence work for those spells? Does the banner of discipline work for it? If banner of discipline doesn't work for it, what about if the general is in another unit and is passing on Ld10 using the banner of discipline?

What about other external sources than inspiring presence? Does Doom and Darkness affect it? Does something like the Manbane Standard affect it (units within 6" are -1 Ld)?

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  nathanr on Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:33 pm

First of all, you can't lump all leadership-based effects into one category. †Some use the term "unmodified leadership" and others do not. †For example:
- Neither mindrazor or the standard of discipline use the term "unmodified leadership".
- Spirit Leech does use the term "unmodified leadership".

It seems to me that the General's inspiring presence does not modify the unit's leadership, they are simply using the character's leadership as if he/she were in the unit. †If that general's leadership was modified, either positively or negatively, that would count as a modified leadership. In those cases where the spell or effect in question calls for "unmodified leadership" the general's original leadership value should be used.

If the leadership-based effect does not contain the term "unmodified leadership" then it is open season on the unit's leadership. †Simply use the leadership value that the unit would be testing on after all modifiers (positive and negative). †Inspiring presence should be allowed as well but remember to apply any applicable leadership modifiers there as well.

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  Kuyp on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:00 pm

I have always felt that unmodified leadership simply means the targets leadership as it appears on their profile.

Inspiring presence spent change any leadership values, it just allows units within radius to use a higher leadership value. So I'd say something like mind razor, a unit inside the generals radius would be S9. If they had the standard of discipline (10) they would still be S9 as that is the unmodified value. with doom and darkness (this is my opinion only) , if I'm not mistaken the spell says the unit suffers -3 to its ldvalue so that would be to both it's own and if they were using the generals of so say 7 becomes 4th and 9 becomes 6

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  nathanr on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:10 pm

Mindrazor does not say "unmodified leadership" it says "leadership" so any modifiers (like the banner of discipline or doom and darkness) would affect the strength.

This raises more questions:
If a unit which is subject to a -1 LD effect is using the general's leadership via inspiring presence and the general is not affected by -1 LD would they test at the general's LD or the general's LD -1?

How about the other way around? If a unit is using the general's leadership via inspiring presence and the general is subject to a -1 to his/her leadership would the unit's test be affected as well?

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  decker_cky on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:14 pm

Sorry Nathan....I think I'm remembering an old FAQ which used unmodified for mindrazor (I know for sure there was one FAQ where it used the printed value on the profile).

nathanr wrote:How about the other way around? †If a unit is using the general's leadership via inspiring presence and the general is subject to a -1 to his/her leadership would the unit's test be affected as well?

Q: If a unit taking a Leadership test has a modifier to its
Leadership, will this modifier still apply if the unit uses the
Generalís Leadership, because of the Inspiring Presence special rule
for example? (p10)
A: Yes.

Kuyp wrote:I have always felt that unmodified leadership simply means the targets leadership as it appears on their profile.

Inspiring presence spent change any leadership values, it just allows units within radius to use a higher leadership value. So I'd say something like mind razor, a unit inside the generals radius would be S9. If they had the standard of discipline (10) they would still be S9 as that is the unmodified value. with doom and darkness (this is my opinion only) , if I'm not mistaken the spell says the unit suffers -3 to its ldvalue so that would be to both it's own and if they were using the generals of so say 7 becomes 4th and 9 becomes 6

That's the classic view for sure, but it's safe to say that the FAQs don't support that interpretation.

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  nathanr on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:24 pm

decker_cky wrote:nathanr wrote:
How about the other way around? †If a unit is using the general's leadership via inspiring presence and the general is subject to a -1 to his/her leadership would the unit's test be affected as well?


Q: If a unit taking a Leadership test has a modifier to its
Leadership, will this modifier still apply if the unit uses the
Generalís Leadership, because of the Inspiring Presence special rule
for example? (p10)
A: Yes.

That FAQ answers the first question not the one you quoted. †What if the general is affected and not the unit using inspiring presence? †I assume the modifier would be applied but is it stated one way or the other anywhere?


Also, Dom I'm not sure which way you are arguing. In your example you have Mindrazor not being affected by the standard of discipline, but it is still affected by doom and darkness. Are you suggesting that only negative modifiers are applied?


Last edited by nathanr on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  decker_cky on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:25 pm

The general's leadership is the general's modified leadership. If you doom and darkness a general, his inspiring presence is -3 Ld (but there's an errata that makes it optional whether you use it or not).

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  nathanr on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:28 pm

That makes sense.

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  squalie on Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:21 pm

I have always felt that unmodified leadership simply means the targets leadership as it appears on their profile.

†I feel the same way.

Why is it always the Lawyers bringing this stuff up?

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Re: Unmodified Leadership

Post  Galadros on Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:10 pm

This is a subject that we have argued in Alberta until 17 shades of purple have been seen in our faces. There is still a difference in interpretation between camps in Calgary vs. Edmonton (of course there would be). The only true conclusion we've reached is that each event organiser needs to make his ruling clear at each event. The one that I prefer, and that we play in Edmonton, is this... When an effect asks you you to check unmodified LD of a model, use it's value as printed in the book. When the effect is directed at the unit, use the model with the highest LD value as printed in the book.
Overall, this means no Inspiring presence, no Standard of Discipline, and no Iceshard Blizzard effects apply.

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