Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

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Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  ScottRadom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:12 am

So as I said over on the events thread I hope everyone had a good time. I felt a little sorry for Dominic Mercier who was essentially playing his frist game. He was using the Nurgle demons and it was a tough atmosphere to try and learn what warhammer is about -rules wise- during such a chaotic environment.

Special Thanks to ROb Gonda and Carson for helping organize each of their sides respectively. I thought the efforts made by team good to organize their side to play as one gigantic army as opposed to 6 different indiviual lists was really cool! I mention the enormous unit of Greatswords and Ironbreakers as examples of this. I enjoyed that!

While team evil didn't spend as much time chatting about what was gonna happen on the day the still managed to "git 'er dun!" by killing 4/6 special characters and claiming the High Elf monolith to channel some dark magic into the lands of men.

So fire away, any comments good or bad will really, really help us fine tune further events. I know there was a little brief discussion on doing something for magic. Thanks again!

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  nathanr on Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:28 am

I had a great time yesterday! Thanks to Scott for organizing it and to Carson and Bob for captaining. I'm not sure how to solve the problem that I had, I found that I was isolated and had nobody to fight where I was (at least I still contributed with my dispel dice). My high king's unit only fought Malekith and that is only because team evil pressured him into trying it (Thorgrim batted him back to wherever he came from). My hammerers led by my other lord were untouched all game. There was nothing for me to attack or defend. One of my units of warriors did manage to fight some ogres but I couldn't get anything else into the fight and that was disappointing.

I think it was mostly due to the location that I was deployed in and the table setup. (I was in the far corner with no room on the opposite table side for an enemy to deploy). I think that a long, straight table might have been more practical (if a bit less interesting) since it guarantees that there will be armies deployed across from each other. I would have liked to test Thorgrim against Archaon and my other lord's axe still thirsts for vengeance!

All in all, I had a good time but next time I am hoping for more action!

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  ScottRadom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:03 am

Okay, that is a good point. Long and narrow may be less visually appealing (to me) but I do agree that the flank you were on seemed like a bit of a side match more than anything. Solutions....

-As mentioned one long table. This may make the battle feel like more of a single cohesive action than the hodge podge sunday represented?

-One thing I am keen to try is a big 4x16 table with one or two side table of maybe 4x4ft action involving seperate goals. Perhaps next time the dwarfs will be tasked with defending a narrow corridor 2 miles east of the battle and preventing Andre's dirty mercenary ogre reinforcements from entering play on turn whatever? Maybe a table with a large hill and a mega battery of cannons raining death on the main battle needs to hold of some marauder cavalry etc.?

-Any other thoughts?

I know team evil didn't really get onside with the whole plan the battle action (Not due to lack of effort!) but team good did, and I thought it made for a more fun game. Did this aspect of the battle make a difference to anyone, fun wise? Should we continue to have more player input on battles like this?

In short, if you were going to run a battle what would you have learned from sunday to make your event better

Thanks for the input Nathan! Though I personally felt the high king and the dwarfs should have been in the center. Wasn't Thorgrim your teams Marshall?

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  nathanr on Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:16 pm

I placed where I did under the plan that our flanking force was going to appear on my side of the table and work their way down. The dwarfs were going to be the rear guard for the flankers, blocking any potential counter-attack. When the objective was revealed on the other side of the table that plan got trashed and the flankers deployed on the opposite end of the table leaving my dwarfs to march around in circles. They might have had more to do in the game if our shooting had not been so effective against everything on that side of the table!

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:21 pm

I thought the game was great, but I,being in the opposite corner from Nathan, also felt alienated (until the crafty reinforcements "arrived" midway up my ass). I felt that the one player at a time deployment rules chopped the game too neatly into a series of 1 on 1 fights, with a couple 2 on 1's and very few interactions between different elements of the teams other than dishing out dispel scrolls.

I also felt that countermagic was far too effective, mainly due to the nature of dispel dice pooling, and I think 2 pool dice limit per table, and restricting anti-magic like dispel scrolls to their own table would be very useful.

I also feel that one big long table would be better than the N shape or lightning bolt or whatever it was.

Finally, moving all the terrain to the edges was pretty lame and turned the entire game into marching onto the empire's guns, with team Evil just scrambling across the table top. Now mega battles aren't the place for uber tech gamesmanship, but some more terrain across the tables, making people think more would have been nice.

All in all, it was a great event though, and another one before christmas would be awesome. Cheers to Scott for putting on a great event.

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  ScottRadom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:41 pm

Agree to all points Eric.

-Terrain! Here I take the full brunt of the blame for this. My goal was to have just enough terrain on the table to make the board look nice, but not too much for it to impact the game at all. I would agree that in the end there just wasn't enough for individuals to use terrain for their advantage either as defender or attacker. Terrain is one thing I really like about the warhammer game and in hindsight I find it odd that I personally chose to remove it's effectiveness.

-Army deployment. As you say the game played out more or less as a series of one on ones. More effort needs to be placed by myself to avoid this. How about doing the "Double Blind" deployment of having boxes or whateverd in the middle and deploying that way? I've always wanted to give it a try, but have worried a little that it might mean that more units wind up out of the mix. Maybe deploying armies as regular but then breaking up the actual control of models differently? This is something I would like to work on more for next time.

Next one should be bigger and better. Agree to the magic phase being a little of a fiasco. This will need to be improved on. I DID feel a little bad for the good guys as I though it would be right easy for evil to fulfill the objectives. Ah well, glad you enjoyed it, and I will improve the next one. I really want to try a massice siege, and Rob Gonda certainly has the tools for attackingf a castle, and I do need a reason to paint up my fortress set.....

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:18 pm

I think something that could be used to mix things up more might be to have a central objective for both forces ("capture this") that counts for a point, but then have secret objectives for each player (kill a character belonging to two different players, get into the enemy deployment zone, capture 3 standards, etc.) and the side that satisfies the most secret objectives gets a point.

This would:
a.) draw all players towards a central objective, this would force players to potentially split up their armies, with their slower infantry nearest to it, and their cav out at the ends.
b.) force players into combat with each others via their secret objectives.

So if Evil captures the objective but good, as a whole, gets more of their player oriented secret objectives then its a draw.

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  nathanr on Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:44 pm

You could also have the table "wrap around" so that units isolated on one end of the table could enter from the other end. You could allow units to do this in one turn or a few select turns only as observing wizards/daemons combine their efforts to swing the tides of the battle/enjoy more carnage.

I also like the central objective, although it would have to be a really large objective with room for several units like a stepped pyramid or a giant bridge. On that same line of thought... a table with a river or gorge running down the center and several bridges would provide natural choke points where the battles would be centered. You would have to have enough bridges so that units aren't just sitting and waiting to cross though (cannons would have a field day).

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  ScottRadom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:44 pm

RickyDMMontoya wrote:I think something that could be used to mix things up more might be to have a central objective for both forces ("capture this") that counts for a point, but then have secret objectives for each player (kill a character belonging to two different players, get into the enemy deployment zone, capture 3 standards, etc.) and the side that satisfies the most secret objectives gets a point.

This would:
a.) draw all players towards a central objective, this would force players to potentially split up their armies, with their slower infantry nearest to it, and their cav out at the ends.
b.) force players into combat with each others via their secret objectives.

So if Evil captures the objective but good, as a whole, gets more of their player oriented secret objectives then its a draw.

Absolutely brilliant idea. This concept wil be included in the next game. Good one!

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  Carson on Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:14 pm

Thanks a ton Scott. I had a great time and am looking forward to the next one. I like what has been said sofar. Some points I was considering on the drive home. I really like the system of objectives used in the white dwarf legendary battle report. They used a weighted point system for objectives based on the whta turn they were controlled. Ex...an objective controlled at the end of turn 1 was worth 1point, 2points on turn 2, etc. So controlling it at the end of the game was very important but could not be totally ignored up until that point.

For the number of players we had I would have liked to of seen at least three table objectives. I liked the secret objectives but totally warped the game when team good actually found out what they were. Maybe a combination of the two would work.

I also didn't like the way terrain played out. I think Scott should set up the terrain and then the defender chooses sides. I'd really like to try the blind setup. It will really make each side think about how they need to set thier army up to cover all angles. Maybe we could try letting "scouts" see the first 10 units deployed and then the rest is hidden. If we did this it would mean that alot of units from the players would be set up mixed on the field instead of single army and then the next single army etc. This can also create problems as players are walking back and forth to control thier own units. Maybe each player could control an area on the field and therby control all the units in the area. One thing they did in the white dwarf artcile was have one plyer from each side control all the magic for the entire game. The rest of the players looked on as a titanic magical duel erupted each turn by the controlling players. Who cares how many dice are in play when one player is making the decision. I think it would be fun to watch.

Another thing I'd like to see is a much earlier start. That way we could play 2-3 turns. Have an intermisiion to relax and unwind and then finish up the last turns.

It was really unfortunate that players were stranded. I felt bad for Nathan and Eric in the later stages of the game. A central objective would really help this, as I can see waves of units attacking for the goal. Maybe if we had three tables there could be an objective for each table. That would ensure action on each table. No table could be ignored by the teams.

Anway, thats my ideas.

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  squalie on Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:33 pm

We did the blind set-up in a 10,000 points a side game. It saved a ton of time and was pretty cool just guessing what was going to be on the other side. When you finally lift the screen everybody laughs as most units are nowhere near where they should be, but it's the same for both sides so it evens out.

Disappointed I missed this though as it sounds like it was a great time. how long did it take? Our 10,000 point game lasted an honest 12 hours, but we were just hangin' out sippin on good drink.

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  nathanr on Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:09 pm

I was really suprised at how smoothly everything went. The pace was never too slow. We started around noon and we got out of there around 5:00 which was several hours earlier than I expected (I guess I should have realized that the store closed at 5 so we'd probably be done by then but I'm not quick like that).

So Scott, are you going to post pictures or what?

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  Kurt on Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:45 am

I must say that I had a very good time at the event thanks forsetting it up! And I like lots of these ideas for the next one.
I just had a thought though, what if we had a senario where team good lays seige to the ruined city of Praag. Featuring battles in the choatic streets complete with open courtyards and areas with crumbled buildings. But that's not all this map could include sceanic veiws from the cities surounding hills and twisted forests that have grown.
I think this could be a good way to use a somewhat seige like battle. And think of the choas in the streets and fighting over a townsquare for a central obgective. I just think the pure carnage of it all would be awe inspiring. Plus (terain models permiting) we could have areas with stairs to fight in the upper levels of some areas. Maby multiple levels that lead to thevhighest point in the city which could certanly be a key obgective point. What do you guys think I just feel like a battle like this has a lot of potential. And it would be cool fighting for a landmark on the warhammer map.

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  Mhael on Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:41 am

I had a great time, thanks to all who helped envision this I am excited to play again on the large scale. Anyone not going away for thanksgiving interested in playing a game Friday night email me at mahknu@hotmail.com. My ogre army is ready!


Last edited by Mhael on Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:18 am

Kurt wrote:I must say that I had a very good time at the event thanks forsetting it up! And I like lots of these ideas for the next one.
I just had a thought though, what if we had a senario where team good lays seige to the ruined city of Praag. Featuring battles in the choatic streets complete with open courtyards and areas with crumbled buildings. But that's not all this map could include sceanic veiws from the cities surounding hills and twisted forests that have grown.
I think this could be a good way to use a somewhat seige like battle. And think of the choas in the streets and fighting over a townsquare for a central obgective. I just think the pure carnage of it all would be awe inspiring. Plus (terain models permiting) we could have areas with stairs to fight in the upper levels of some areas. Maby multiple levels that lead to thevhighest point in the city which could certanly be a key obgective point. What do you guys think I just feel like a battle like this has a lot of potential. And it would be cool fighting for a landmark on the warhammer map.

The problem with something like this, is that once units are in combat, they don't move very far. Good could win pretty much just by putting their units in a big line. Hell, I was out of combat all game and my Ogres would have never gotten into a fight with anything except that damn steam tank if those Knights hadn't luckily turned up to kill all my dudes.

Anything that involves moving more than 24" probably isn't a great idea, because it's very easy to prevent someone from moving more than 24" over a game, especially if it only lasts 4-5 turns.

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  nathanr on Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:02 pm

It could be done, its all about terrain setup. I think if an impartial person (Scott or whoever is "refereeing") set up the terrain and included a portion of a table (or an entire table) as city streets or a town square it could work. As long as there is enough space to move fully ranked units between buildings. I think it would be very interesting! Close combat can bog units down, but it can also allow them to move farther than otherwise possible. A unit of dwarfs can theoretically move up to 17 inches in a single turn in which they charge 6", break whatever they attack and then pursue 11". It would take them 3 turns of marching to do that otherwise. Skirmishers and fast cavalry would also do very well in a game like that, darting up narrow alleys to outflank or get behind the less manouverable infantry blocks while missile units hole up in the buildings and take potshots.

I might suggest trying it on a slightly smaller scale first like maybe a 2 vs 2 game but I think it is a very interesting idea!

I actually think that this was what was missing from our megabattle on Sunday. We didn't really have a back story or any reason for the fight other than the generic "The bad guys are coming and the forces of good need to defend." I think a game that size needs a bit more of a story behind it. There has to be some reason that Emperor Carl Franz, High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer, Valten, Teclis & Venerable Lord Croak (and whoever else we had on our side) decided to join forces!

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:16 pm

You're right about the narrative. I simply didn't do it, I felt it was missing, and it WILL be present for the next one. I enjoy doing that shit so it's not like it would have been a chore or anything. Next time baby!

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  Ironwoulf on Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:56 pm

nathanr wrote:It could be done, its all about terrain setup. I think if an impartial person (Scott or whoever is "refereeing") set up the terrain and included a portion of a table (or an entire table) as city streets or a town square it could work. As long as there is enough space to move fully ranked units between buildings. I think it would be very interesting! Close combat can bog units down, but it can also allow them to move farther than otherwise possible. A unit of dwarfs can theoretically move up to 17 inches in a single turn in which they charge 6", break whatever they attack and then pursue 11". It would take them 3 turns of marching to do that otherwise. Skirmishers and fast cavalry would also do very well in a game like that, darting up narrow alleys to outflank or get behind the less manouverable infantry blocks while missile units hole up in the buildings and take potshots.

I might suggest trying it on a slightly smaller scale first like maybe a 2 vs 2 game but I think it is a very interesting idea!

I actually think that this was what was missing from our megabattle on Sunday. We didn't really have a back story or any reason for the fight other than the generic "The bad guys are coming and the forces of good need to defend." I think a game that size needs a bit more of a story behind it. There has to be some reason that Emperor Carl Franz, High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer, Valten, Teclis & Venerable Lord Croak (and whoever else we had on our side) decided to join forces!

I agree that this could be made workable. Units of 10 or less (in skirmish)instead of 20 going down streets, those units that make it to the town square can reform back into thier squares. Have narrower side streets, some wide streets, courtyards. Army size of maybe 1200pts, come up with some scenario house rules to keep with the flavour of the game and make the mechanics flow. Nothing like sacking a city to while away a weekend.

Background could be that seeing as a hogepodge of evil successfulling crossed the border the taking key positions and decimating the leadership they were able to successsfully lay seige to a city breaching its defenses. Can the reamining good defenders hold off anhilation, will good be able to come to the rescue in time( keep a tally of good vs evil games in next league to work proportion of opposing forces in battle of relief)

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

Post  ScottRadom on Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:55 am

So there are no pictures from the event. My wife erased them all (She thought I had already downloaded them). Funny how Kathy is GREAT at asking me questions like "Did you dowload those pictures?" 2 seconds after it matters....

Sorry, there were some good ones.

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Re: Legendary Battles! (Oct 5th)

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