tournament scoring

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tournament scoring

Post  Carson on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:45 am

Hey guys,

Ive been thinking this week on last weekends tournament. Hopefully everyone had a good time and as Im always striving to make our events the best they can be I thought I'd put this out to the group. Basically, I have scored my events along the lines of large scale tournaments that I have attended in the past and have run in Saskatoon itself. While these have been successful events they don't necessarily translate that well into our smaller group.

The issues I see are:

1. We have a small group where were all friends, ie sportsmanship is almost redundant.
2. As we are always in the process of new army builds, fully painted armies are a rarity. How to or even do we need to score painting.

The scoring at the tournament led to these issues.......only 2 guys (Sean and Andre) went undefeated and neither of them won. They both lost out by the sportsmanship scoring and for sean the painting score. While I want the players to have a chance to win even without going undefeated I felt that I should address what happened. Sean was perplexed about his minimum sportsmanship scores, what happened is that in our group sportsmanship was devolved into a quasi-army composition score. Sean is a great guy to play against, but he was punished for taking the chaos list that he did. Did he do something wrong....no, but he will draw the short end of the stick when fielding warriors.

So what to do?

I've never liked the idea of tournaments based purely on battle points, but do we need to go this way. Do we need to bring comp back in and take painting and sports out?

So, I want to put this out to the group. What are your honest thoughts (don't pull any punches) on how the tournament went down. How would you want tournaments scored in the future. Everyone has a stake in this so lets hear your thoughts and ideas.

I'm planning the next tournament right now......a 2 day 6 round slugfest in November, so lets hear it.

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  nathanr on Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:31 am

I think tournament scoring should go for the whole meal deal. Warhammer isn't just about winning and losing, it is also about painting and modelling and about having fun.

I think the sportsmanship scoring was done perfectly, if it had been just a straight score between 1 and 5 I would have given all 3 of my opponents a 4 or 5. There have been tournaments where it has been really easy to rank sportsmanship scores but this one was very tight. With the ranking system I had to carefully consider my games. Sean, our game was great fun and you are an excellent opponent but someone had to get the low score and unfortunately on Saturday it was you.

Painting is definitely a tricky one. I love to see fully painted armies. Nothing is better in Warhammer than seeing 2 fully painted armies duking it out on well-built terrain. When I scored the painting I used a scale:

1 - mostly unpainted, basic painting skills
2 - some painted
3 - mostly painted
4 - fully painted
5 - fully painted with conversions

Sean, you got a 1 because you told me that the chariots were the only things you had painted. They were neatly done but to get a higher score from me you'll have to paint more of your army.

Brian, you got a 2 from me. You had a lot that was unpainted. What you did have was neat, I liked the bright orange on the skinks.

Don, you got a 3. The painting that you've done is very well-done but your unit of Ushtabi was not painted or fully assembled and I didn't see any conversions (I apologize if you have some).

The only person there that I would have given a 5 to is Geoff as I believe he was the only one with a fully painted army and he has some very cool conversions in his army.

I don't know if that answers your question at all Carson, composition has always been a touchy subject in our group, mostly because it is fairly unnecessary. However, if we are getting a bunch of out-of-towners coming in for the big tournament it might be something to consider. There is also the option to have an additional "Best General" award for the person with the highest number of battle points. I think the Tournament Champion should be someone who managed to do well in games which were enjoyed by his opponents with an army that looks great.

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  Planes on Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:36 pm

Over at Hunters we've started trying out a new sportsmanship scoring method, spearheaded by Beau. It scores you out of 10, but with only 3 options to choose from. "Meh/would play again" confers 7 points, and should be the average score given. "New best friend" gives 10, and is reserved for especially awesome matches and their ilk. "Major issue" gives 4, and generally invokes direct attention from the TO as soon as that score is submitted, as something is generally going wrong as that point and something needs to be fixed before the tournament progresses. I'm sure Beau could explain it better than myself, but it does help to cut down on both people absent mindedly just checking off every box or conversely nickle and dime-ing the score of someone out of spite.

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  GeoffKlassen on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:22 pm

Carson that one is always a tough one, if you don't have composition then people use sportsman to punish the painful armies. If you do have composition than sportsmanship maxes out. It really is a tough one, painting is always easy tons of painting score guide lines on the web. But composition has to make people balance their armies and it does not work for all armies. Sportsmanship is relative but I have always disliked vote 1,2,3 cause people lose out if it was a score of 1-10 were the first 6 points are based on hard stats like was he quick on his turn, measure properly had a tape measure, etc it causes people to think great guy forgot his stuff. Or man he was terrible to play only made it to turn 3. Your call but both of us have been there.

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  bluepeople on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:32 pm

I don't have much experience with tournament play and I only understand the basics of comp. But listening to Sean during our game last Monday I could definitely understand where he was coming from. I like how the scoring worked in the tournament and I have a ton of fun Carson you did a stand up job. I would have liked to see a 'best general' award for someone with the most battle points as well as the other awards. I do not however how that effects the administrative side of things.

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  Kal on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:49 pm

Ok ok lets get Justin's post straight. first thing we did talk but I was not complaining. infact quite the opposite. I had a blast! as I always do rolling dice with you guys. And my sportsman comp made sense and I do not argue that. which is why I am now either shelving the WoC or just the meaner parts of them such as SC and DP. My only point I had made is in regards to the fact that you don't want it all based off battle points as to not discourage people from coming. but at the same time I think a serious painting score that can acutally make a difference of who wins overall is unfair. I understand this is a hobby and it is about the models. but at the same time we aren't making model cars this is a game. so I feel it would be equally discouraging for someone who is unpainted to want to come to a tourney. knowing that they could go 3 and 0 and still have no chance of winning based off the fact their models aren't painted fully. I have only been playing for 9 or 10 months vs some people who have been playing for many years. I have no chance of catching up to a fully painted army if I want it to look half decent. painting takes a long time for me as im still very new to the idea. and I am constantly bugging people such as carson, don and Justin for painting advice as this is definitely my weakest point of Warhammer. My only thought would be to make a soft score and a hard score winner. I have been following this thread since Carson opened it this morning but have been trying to find a way to properly word it without sounding like im whining or being bias. just let me say this. I love rolling dice with you guys and warhammer is awesome! so these are just some thoughts I had and are in no way meaning im not gonna show up and game anyways. Just saying. Also as ive told you before Carson I love your tourneys regardless of the scoring. tons of fun and good people

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  Carson on Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:38 am

Thanks for the replys so far. Its about the club comradeship and love of the hobby that is the point of this thread. Our events need to be a highlight for everyone so keep the ideas and thoughts coming.

Painting is definitely something that takes time to develop but does not need a lot of natural talent. The main thing is in learning the techniques and methods used by experienced painters. You should of seen the first army I painted:shock: The main thing is to learn the techniques and then modify them to fit your own style......and remember....don't forget the bases!!!! Really means the difference between a good and great looking army.

In fact we should really start up a Q&A thread for painting/hobby questions, product information, news, et.

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  Mhael on Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:01 pm

We had alot if door prizes randomly drawn at the end. I see no reason not to categorize each aspect. One for compositio, one for painting/conversions, one for sportsmanship, one for straight win/loss and a big winner for pure hibbyist combining all the categories

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  ScottRadom on Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:49 pm

Long time lurker first time poster here...

Tournaments historically have always awarded the overall championship to the player who was best able to represent the best aspect of the entire tabletop hobby which runs from battle points, comp, sports, and painting scores. Each category usually has it's own place to get awarded a trophy/cookie but overall it's the one who is moistest bestest at combining all the aspects of the hobby who should take the cheese.

If you lean towards lowering the painting reward aspect of the championship I think it's a mistake. Just a thought, if you walked into a back room and saw two people playing a game with raw plastic armies and crappy terrain like coke cans and stacks of books how interested would you be in what was going on? DON'T reduce the value of painted armies!

I had some thoughts back in the day regarding sportsmanship when I ran tournies. Back then we found the same thing that army comp if not included separately would carry over into sportsmanship. If it was scored on its own then as Geoff said Sprtsmanship was basically a wash. So I had thought about keeping comp and sportsmanship separate but maybe only using it as a tiebreaker category. If your comp score was high (fair army) and you tied in battle points with someone who scored lower in comp you'd get the jump up in the standings. For sportsmanship if the field was all clogged up with everyone maxing or near maxed out I would maybe have used it as a tiebreaker if all the final scores were tied up but you were tied for a spot with someone who scored slightly lower. It was just a thought.

But if you guys start playing and not scoring painting at all I will kill all of you. That shit is a legally binding statement yo!

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  Nathan.A. on Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:04 pm

Painting is very important. Being totally honest I would way rather play a game I lose against a fully or mostly painted army, than win one against raw plastic/ black models.

Just my two cents.

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  decker_cky on Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:27 pm

Painting should definitely remain an important part of winning overall. I really like the recent changes put in place to both reward overall painted armies, and to encourage progress in painting. Forces me to paint some new models rather than just always using the same thing.

I'm not a fan of the harsh sportsmanship designed to give most people less than full score. I prefer sportsmanship to be gimme points unless someone was a bad opponent, and to get bonus points for favourite opponent votes.

Another concern is that comp is spilling into sportsmanship. Maybe a ranking similar to to favourite opponent votes where you rank the lists you faced, with the lowest rankings losing a few points and the highest rankings gaining a few points?

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  Carson on Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:57 pm

Interesting points clark. I'd really like to here from everyone to form some sort of consensus.

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Re: tournament scoring

Post  Galadros on Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:29 pm

Firstly, I whole heartedly agree with Scott. You absolutely CANNOT overlook the value of incorporating painting scores into the overall score, even if it just a simple checklist of achievements. To address your point about people always painting new armies, Carson... Perhaps people are rushing armies to the table because the painting score is not weighted enough? I understand that some may be working their very first army, but most of you have a painted army already, don't you? Or just as likely, you have ALMOST finished armies that need some incentive to complete. An increase, not a decrease in painting weight will lead to this. It certainly has in Alberta where I have seen only 2 unpainted armies over 8 events this past year.

Secondly, I don't believe in comp, at least not beyond what your army book tells you can ad cannot do. I certainly agree that it does spill over into sportsmanship scores, though. The result of the game also skews this score as well. I'd bet my High elf army on the premise that guys who clobber their opponents get worse scores than those who get whooped. So how do we fix? I recommend simplifying it. Score 1 for an average game, 2 for something exceptional and memorable, and 0 for a poor experience. This could be your comp score (if you want to keep one at all).
Sportsmanship should be renamed as Behaviour score. Out of 5 points per game, use 1-3 to reflect game play, such as; did your opponent play in a timely manner, did he move and measure appropriately, did he handle any odd situations well? Points 4-5 should be reserved player personality. Consider things like; was this player engaging before, during and after the game, did he make me comfortable, was there any entertaining banter?

Play with those ideas.

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