Time to re-think league points?

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Time to re-think league points?

Post  nathanr on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:38 am

Darren and I were talking during our game last night and he suggested that we re-think how we score the points in the league.  As it stands now, the more games you play the better you do and those who cannot play as many games end up at the bottom with no hope of catching up.

Darren proposed a sort of "average score" system where your league score is based on the average number of points you get per game.  This is how I understood it, correct me if I'm wrong Darren:

Jim plays 6 games:
- Crushing victory, painted, ladder challenge - 10 points
- Defeat, not painted not ladder challenge - 3 points
- Non-league - 2 points
- victory, painted, not ladder challenge - 6 points
- draw, painted, not ladder challenge - 5 points
- Defeat, painted, ladder challenge - 5 points
His league score would be 5.17 which is an average of the above games.

Now Steve plays 14 games:
- 3 points
- 5 points
- 7 points
- 10 points
- 2 points
- 6 points
- 8 points
- 2 points
- 4 points
- 3 points
- 8 points
- 4 points
- 6 points
- 7 points
Steve's average score would be 5.36.

Now, the points per game would probably need to be reworked, especially for non-league games but there is some merit to this type of system.  I told Darren that I'd put this forward and see what everyone thinks.  Do we need to re-think the scoring system or should we stick with what we've got?

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kal on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:13 pm

I like the way the rules are currently. Imo. It encourages more games. Cuz if someone has three crushing victories they have a good average and wont want to play another game to risk them lowering their average.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Nathan.A. on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:39 pm

I think this is a good idea.

As mentioned not everyone can play a game a week and with the current system those players have almost no chance of contesting for the title.

As far as scoring by averages, I think there first has to be a minimum number of league games a person must play, before their score counts towards a league title.
Also I think it would be a good idea if non league games and league games were scored separately, and then averages for both calculated and added together.
For example:
Person A's League games: .................. = 5.22 avg
Person A's Non-League games: ........... = 1.62 avg
Total score = 6.84

With this system we could implement some starting point for non league points, something like everyone (even if they never play a non-league game) starts at an avg NL score of 1.2, or something.

Anyways these are just my thoughts.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kal on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:51 pm

They could get on top again by just challenging the leaders! How would challenges work with this new system?

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kuyp on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:29 pm

How about we keep the points but for deciding playoffs we take the two top ladder spots and the two top averages followed by the points leader in fifth. That way we get the player who played better instead of the they guy who played a million games but lost everyone for two points a game. Also I think our ladder is kinda harsh right now and should be cahnged if were changing stuff.

I think players are added to the lader in order they singed up with last leagues deffending champ automaticly in first place. Now if someone in say two places of another plays a game and win, they get their spot and shifts the rest of the players below them down one spot. Each player is still alowed the one wild card challenge per league where you can challage anyone player to a game. The loser of this game is moved to the bottom of tbe lader regardless of their current position. The winner is moved to the top of the ladder regardless of their postion. So the stakes are high. Everyone but the top ladder spot can turn down a wild card challenge. If you on top you have to fight. If the top spot wins a challenge they.... receive a masters point ???

Some thing to think about and make the wild card challenges worth while for players. Ad well ad keeps the lader spots constantly moving around while not penalizing players for a bad game or A loss ( like dropping theee spots for a loss lime can happen right now)

My two cents

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kal on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:54 pm

I like your idea with the ladder as well with the top 5.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  nathanr on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:55 pm

You'd definitely still have to have 5 league games played to qualify for playoffs.  Also, I think we should come up with some sort of bonus system for playing lots of games, maybe a +1 on every 5th game or something along those lines.  I think there would also be some sort of -1 for playing the same opponent multiple times but it probably wouldn't be quite like we have it now, maybe just a -1 and not cumulative.

I like Nathan A's idea for keeping non-league games separate and then adding the averages together, we could give 1 point for playing a non-league game and another for winning.  For league games the point breakdown could be:

Crushing victory: 8-2
Victory: 6-3
Draw: 4-4
+1 for painting
+1 for ladder challenge

I also like Dom's idea for the ladder except that I'd change it slightly so that the top 2 spots can only be lost by losing a challenge.  Say Person A was in top spot, person B was in second spot and person C was in 4th.

1. Person A
2. Person B
3. Person X
4. Person C

Since you can challenge 3 spots above you, person C challenges person A and wins.  Person C takes top spot and instead of Person A going to 4th like we do now, Person A will go to 3rd spot, shifting everyone below down 1 spot to look like this:

1. Person C
2. Person B
3. Person A
4. Person X

This would keep the top 2 spots (which are the playoff spots) something to be won and you can't lose them without a fight.
Below the top 2 spots a successful challenge will result in the winner taking the loser's position on the ladder, the loser going down 1 spot and shifting everyone below.  I think we should keep the wildcard challenges as-is but if you issue a wildcard challenge to someone in the top 2 and they refuse or can't play within a week (or a certain amount of time), then the challenger gets the spot. Obviously there would have to be some sort of additional ruling for out of town challenges but I'm thinking the challenger would have to be willing to make the trip if they want to make the challenge.

Lets keep this discussion going, I'm interested in hearing everyone's ideas.


Last edited by nathanr on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kal on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:03 pm

I agree with the if they refuse the challenge they lose the spot. But the time limit thing kinda is iffy. If someone really cant play a game. And does make the effort i think it should be up to a vote imo. If the challenger makes no effort in going to said city to have a game why should the defender have to do all the work or lose his spot. But i like the 2 spot challenge rule with the bumping

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  nathanr on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:05 pm

I was editing my post to say pretty much the same thing you just posted Sean. I definitely agree with you.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  squalie on Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:50 pm

I'm digesting most of this before an honest reply, but I'm not sure about bonus points for playing more games. Isn't that what started this discussion in the first place.

I mean really - Playing a game is it's own reward.Wink 

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kuyp on Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:48 pm

In my post I only mean wild card challenges that you lose your spot. In any other game you just slide down one spot if you lose. So if sean is in third , nathans in second and I'm in first. And sean and I play a game and his deamon prince walks all over me, in addtion to any points he wins he now also moves up the ladder moving me down to second and nathan down to third place.

Other than that I say we keep all points the way they are. Non league games don't get added to our roster at all ( the way I think it should be), at the end of the league the first and second players make the finals, the rest of the players then tally up their points and find the average top two averages make it in third and fourth place respectively. Finally the player left with the most points gets fifth spot.. fifth plays fourth, winner plays third, winner plays the winner of first and second winner takes all the cookies!!! ( and auto gets first leader spot next league to start)


I think intead of trading spots with a person within three spots it should only be within two spots

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  nathanr on Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:22 pm

In your example I lost second place and a potential playoff spot because you lost to Sean. I think that second place on the ladder should only be lost through a challenge. The ladder would work just as you said otherwise but if first place gets taken, the loser moves to third and shifts everyone below while second place remains as-is.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kal on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:22 pm

I agree with the idea that 1st and 2nd are more or less locked in. Only concern is that it may be difficult to dislodge that person but i guess thats where a challenge comes into play. 2nd player shouldnt lose a playoff spot cuz 1st place got his ass kicked. So 1st to 3rd is nice.

I sense a little anger towards the DP Dom. Dont worry be has been shelved to gather dust. Ive had my fun. That is unless i roll a free one on the Eye Of The Gods chart Wink

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  squalie on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:47 pm

I think I agree with Dom that non league games shouldn't count. I'm readjusting my view on a few things and this is one of them.Very Happy 

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  nathanr on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:55 pm

squalie wrote:I think I agree with Dom that non league games shouldn't count.  I'm readjusting my view on a few things and this is one of them.Very Happy 
The only reason I think that non-league game points are important is to encourage league players to play games with people who are not in the league yet or are hesitant to join for whatever reason. The alternative would be to nix those points and if you want your game to count, offer to pay their league fees and sign them up!

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  squalie on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:21 pm

I understand. Maybe just 1 point then?

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  decker_cky on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:49 pm

Spitballing some possibilities: You could do a bonus for playing all members of the league (avoid only playing a few games with big wins), and a bonus for getting a new member to join the league (entice you to play other players without points for non-league games).

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Carson on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:51 am

good to see everyone rethinking the league format. My only thoughts are that the final product needs to be as simple as possible. If things get too complicated people tend to just ignore or forget about them. I'd really like to see a return to the competitive gaming for the league title.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  nathanr on Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:57 am

Well, if I'm keeping track of the games all people have to do is to post their results and whether or not they were painted. I can calculate the points (or have a spreadsheet do it) and ladder positions. It will mean some initial setup work for me but once I've got everything figured out it should be fairly easy.

I'm going to list the ideas that we have so far and I'd like people to give their opinions on each item, then we'll come up with a final plan and implement it in the next league which will be starting sometime in October.

1. To qualify for playoffs you need to play 5 league games. This is already a rule but it is one I think we should keep.

2. In addition to the total points, players will have a score which is an average of all their game scores.

3. The ladder will remain and you can challenge people up to 3 spots ahead of you. If you win a ladder challenge you take that person's spot on the ladder and they move down 1 spot shifting all those below.

4. The top 2 spots on the ladder can only be lost due to losing a challenge, meaning that if the top guy loses a challenge he will move to 3rd and the second place guy will stay where he is.

5. Wildcard challenges result in the winner trading places with the loser. These can be refused except by the people in the top 2 spots.

6. Playoffs will be: top 2 people on the ladder, top 2 average scores, most total points.

7. Winner of the last league will start at the top of the ladder in the next.

Please number your responses so I know which point you're talking about.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kuyp on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:16 am

I think they look good except point 3. I think it should only be within two spots

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Nathan.A. on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:41 pm

I like this.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Carson on Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:47 pm

Those look perfect to me. I really dig the average score as it gives everyone an idea of who is doing what and how in their games.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  Kal on Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:31 pm

I agree completely. But as dom said. With a smaller league #3 should be within 2 spots and if they are more thats what u wildcard for.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  nathanr on Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:33 pm

The only reason I said 3 spots is because we have people in the league from out of town and people who don't play a lot of games. If you get stuck behind them on the ladder it can be tough to move. 3 spots is what we have now and it seems to work well. If the majority feels differently we can change it though.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

Post  nathanr on Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:28 am

It seems like these rule changes are well-received. At least that's what I'm assuming since there have been no gigantic arguments or protests. I'm going to put these changes into effect for the next league and we'll see how it goes. Thanks to Darren for coming up with the idea - now you know who to blame if they don't work!Razz 

Due to Dom and Sean's suggestions, people will only be able to challenge 2 spots above them unless they are using their wildcard challenge.

Thanks for the input from everyone and if you see room for improvement or have other suggestions just let me know.

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Re: Time to re-think league points?

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