High Elves vs. Bretonnians

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High Elves vs. Bretonnians

Post  nathanr on Mon May 13, 2013 5:54 pm

So I did a little comparison because I had nothing better to do:

Take 15 Bretonnian Knights of the Realm with full command. In the lance formation (3x5) they pack quite a punch. 13 attacks at WS4 and S5. They have very good movement at 8"/16" and have good static combat resolution (3 ranks and a banner). They are also hard to kill with a 2+ armour save and the blessing ward save of 5+ or 6+ depending on the strength of the attack. You get all this for 384 points.

Now, take 15 High Elf Silverhelms. In 3 ranks of 5 they are less cumbersome (the unit is only 6" long compared to the Bretonnian unit which is 10" long!). They pump out 3 more attacks than the Bretonnians, with ASF and re-rolls due to their superior initiative they will hit more often too. Their WS and Strength are the same. Thanks to their super-light barding they are faster with M9 and they have almost as good static combat resolution with a banner and 2 ranks. They have an equal armour save at 2+. They can get a ward save due to the high elf magic but lets give that point to the Bretonnians anyway. You get all this for 375 points.

I've compared these two units on the charge because that's where cavalry shine and that's the only way that it's even close. The sad thing is that Silverhelms are not typically a popular choice in the High Elf army while Knights of the Realm are about as good as it gets for the Bretonnians and are supposed to be the premier core-choice cavalry of the old world.

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Re: High Elves vs. Bretonnians

Post  Carson on Mon May 13, 2013 8:38 pm

Where the lance really shines is in its narrow frontage. Not only does it limit the amount of attacks back but allows multiple lances to hit the same target where other cav units cannot. That being said, the brets really suffer in the world of 8th edition right now. I'd really like to see an updated bret book. I kind of miss the days when the bret lances were rightly feared, now with the rise of monstrous cav as the mounted kings of the field I wonder what they can do to update the army. I couple of simple suggestions would be to give devastating charge and a strike first rule to Cav units.

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Re: High Elves vs. Bretonnians

Post  nathanr on Tue May 14, 2013 10:36 am

It was just discouraging to me to read the new High Elf book and see things that were once unique to the Bretonnian book being given to the elves. No movement penalties for barding? check, plus we'll give them M9 because they're elves! Cavalry hitting in more than 2 ranks? check. Cavalry with a built-in ward save? check (dragon princes), plus you can't lose it and it can be increased with magic! Also, against flaming attacks lets make it a 2+ ward.

Oh well, hopefully this means that Bretonnians are going to be awesome when their army eventually gets revisited. I can always hope. At least the elves didn't get a high-strength stone thrower for 90 points!

I think you have the right idea Carson, lances should give the bearer ASF on the charge and being mounted on a barded warhorse should give the rider the devastating charge special rule. It would probably make knights more expensive but maybe worth it. I also think that the Bretonnians should have a banner that makes the unit that carries it count double their ranks on turns that they charge in order to get rid of steadfast. It could be a 100 point banner and I'd still take it every time. Steadfast is the single rule that killed the Bretonnian army.

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Re: High Elves vs. Bretonnians

Post  squalie on Tue May 14, 2013 12:21 pm

I try to keep things in perspective. The Bret book is editions old so it's pointless to be concerned about what they "lost".

Also, if some of the comments by Hastings are to be believed (and they should be) Bretonnians won't be getting a new book anyways. No one will. Bretonnians as you recognize them won't exist anyways.

Enjoy what you can while you can.

Anyone wanna buy a chaos themed Bret army? Wink




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Re: High Elves vs. Bretonnians

Post  nathanr on Tue May 14, 2013 2:42 pm

I'm actually looking forward to the compiled books that are being hinted at by Hastings and Harry. I think that is exactly what the Bretonnians need. Adding Wood Elf units to a Bretonnian army suddenly makes it a viable army again.

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Re: High Elves vs. Bretonnians

Post  Trevor Y. on Tue May 14, 2013 8:12 pm

High Elves Lord has higher BS than any and all Wood Elf characters...

Seems wrong to me. Games Workshop keeps taking a piss on Wood Elves.

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Re: High Elves vs. Bretonnians

Post  Kuyp on Tue May 14, 2013 10:26 pm

I have been thinking on making and update for brets and wood elfs and possibly dwarves. i got the wood elf stuff done mostly and was going to start on the brets. after looking at the book, it actually seems worse than what it plays.. but its still not great. i think there are some easy changes we could make as "club rules" that would bring the arrmies more in tune with 8th and a bit more compettative.

things like... Knights of the realm unit size 5-15?? why not make it 5+? no other armies have a cap on their core options. they are 26 points where knights errant are only 20 while about the only diffrence is a point os weaponskill, and the knights errant have access to a banner that makes them S6 on the charge...hmm maybe make the knights of the realm S4 basic rather than S3. the lance formation is pretty solid i think... maybe just add any unit that is charged by a lance formation does not get a rank bonus, giving them a charge that breaks steadfast is broken IMO, but taking away a units +3 ranks could help out making sure the knights win combat as they should.

I will wirte this stuff up and myabe give it a test run this weekend, see what people think?

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