New FAQs posted

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New FAQs posted

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:41 pm

A couple of the big (huge?) changes:
No overrun for crumbling Unstable or Daemonic units in combat.
Tomb Kings Entombed units can deploy normally.
Demigryphs are T4.
Vampire stuff can scream into any combat.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:17 am

No overrun for crumbling Unstable or Daemonic units in combat.

Makes sense, also affects breaking war machines and swarms.

Demigryphs are T4

It affects all monstrous cavalry and characters on monstrous mounts. You now use the higher value between the rider and mount for both T and W. I like that rule, makes my elf stag-riders T4 as well.

Vampire stuff can scream into any combat.

Interesting, doesn't really change much to me but I'll remember that next time I play against a VC army.

I'm going to have to have a read through and see if I can find more changes.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  decker_cky on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:02 pm

The no overrun FAQs have left a bit of a grey area we should sort out - are you allowed to reform when that unit pops (either a combat reform before the remaining wounds are taken, or a reform because the unit you were fighting was destroyed).

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:15 pm

I would say no. If you kill the unit outright before crumbling then you are able to reform. This is a benefit that you have earned through killing the unit in combat. Since you had to rely on crumbling you have not earned that right. Just as you aren't allowed to overrun it stands to reason that you can't reform.

Either kill it outright in combat or take the flank charge.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:22 pm

Can you?
http://.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107587

You can't.
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107589

You can.
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107525

And Warseer's discussion:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?355889-What-The-FAQ-is-updated

Some of the discussion is tongue in cheek (ok, a lot of it is), but the consensus seems to be yes you can/no you can't.

I am strongly on the side of "yes you can" because reforming has nothing at all to do with overrunning. You don't need to charge to reform, you don't need to wipe out the enemy unit to overrun.

There are only three requirements to make a combat reform from victory:
1.) your unit wins close combat;
2.) the enemy does not flee; and
3.) you must be engaged only on one side.

You have to win combat to crumble a unit. So check on the first condition.
Undead/Daemons/Skaven Slaves/Squigs don't flee from combat. So check on the second condition.

All conditions satisfied, unit can reform.

As an example, imagine the following scenario:
10 Black Guard are fighting a unit of 20 skeletons. They inflict hideous casualties, and after crumbling, 1 skeleton remains. The Black Guard unit can reform from victory.

Contrasted with:
10 Black Guard are fighting a unit of 20 skeletons. They inflict hideous casualties, and after crumbling, 0 skeletons remain. This Black Guard can reform from victory.

If you think the unit can't in situation 2, please explain why not.

Of course, then we get into the question as to whether the center of the unit has to stay in the same spot... But the likely timing (prior to crumbling) helps resolve that.


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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  decker_cky on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:49 pm

IMO, it comes down to whether you can combat reform after the unit is gone. The models are removed from the CR in step 2 of the combat, but it doesn't trigger wipeout or you could overrun. Step 3 of combat allows a combat reform, and while intent clearly says that it shouldn't be invoked, you technically could argue that it's possible since your unit won combat but the enemy did not flee. That leads to the issue that combat reforms don't have to be centered (from a previous errata), allowing a unit to transpose itself so long as it doesn't move more than double movement.

The only other opportunity to reform is in step 4, which only comes if you restrain or if you wiped out the opponent and did not overrun, which I interpret as having an opportunity to overrun as a precondition.

So either it's combat reform or you're frozen. Being frozen would in a way be similar in a way to the "No more foes" rule on page 61 - both came from situations where wipeout wasn't invoked but you no longer have enemies in base to base contact.

However, if there's no reform, it gives an immense boost to skaven, VC, TK and daemons (doesn't actually make much of a difference to war machines since you can already wheel to connect with them at favourable angles.), moreso than the no overrun already does. I'm willing to play this way, but I might have to break out a skaven list full of 20 man slave units if we do. Razz

So I can see it one of two ways, and I don't think the rules really suitably deal with it, so I'm suggesting we come to a consensus.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:52 pm

When you reform from victory you cannot turn your flank to the unit you are engaged with or change the direction your unit is facing. I don't see any other reason you would want to reform after crumbling a unit other than to either line up a new charge or prevent a flank charge. Also, since you can't expand your frontage to increase the number of models in base contact I don't think you are allowed to combat reform anyway.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:54 pm

nathanr wrote:When you reform from victory you cannot turn your flank to the unit you are engaged with or change the direction your unit is facing. I don't see any other reason you would want to reform after crumbling a unit other than to either line up a new charge or prevent a flank charge. Also, since you can't expand your frontage to increase the number of models in base contact I don't think you are allowed to combat reform anyway.
None of what I have underlined is true.

In the normal course of business you can do all of that... You can turn your flank to the enemy, you can change direction of your unit, and you can expand frontage without putting models in combat... All in a normal combat reform.

The only requirements for being able to do a combat reform are listed above.

The only restrictions for what form the reform can entail are:
1.) can't remove models from combat;
2.) can't move more than double movement; and
3.) can't contact a facing of your enemy that you are not currently engaged in (so if you are aligned against the front of the enemy, you can't suddenly be on your enemy's flank).

There is no prohibition against turning a flank (or rear) to the enemy, no prohibition against changing direction generally, and no requirement that you bring more models into combat.

If you were engaged in the flank by a monster, you could reform to face the monster and go into a horde. Similarly, if you were engaged in the front, you could reform to put them on the flank. It's all good.

decker_cky wrote:So either it's combat reform or you're frozen.
Combat Reform.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:24 pm

I see what you are saying, but I don't think it is what they are going with here. Consider this hypothetical scenario:

We are playing a game before all of this discussion has happened. My big unit of hammerers has just wiped the floor with a unit of your daemons but there are 1 or 2 daemons left. Your turn is coming up and you have a unit of bloodletters lined up for a flank charge. Are you telling me that you let me turn my hammerers with a winning reform to face your bloodletters resulting in your 2 remaining daemons facing my flank?

It seems pretty far-fetched and I don't think it is in the spirit of the rules to do that. I suppose one could still have it both ways and say that since the command group in my hammerers is in base contact with the two remaining daemons they have to remain in contact and since the command group must stay in the front rank then the unit cannot turn. That would be rule-lawyering to the extreme though and I have found that people who do that are pretty low on the list of my preferred opponents.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  decker_cky on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:33 pm

Is it really any different than if you reverse it, and use the combat reform to face a unit that had charged your flank?

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:35 pm

Nathan,

Of course that's allowed. That's part of what the rule is intended to do...

Not rules lawyering in the slightest. I don't understand your position even a little bit. Please explain why you think it would be bad play to do so?

It seems like a hum-drum, everyday use of the rules as intended... Suspect

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:38 pm

Yes, because that is specifically in the rulebook. Also, you have to weather a round of combat with that unit on your flank first. The whole idea is to plan your combats. If you win and break your opponent then you can overrun or reform to safety. If not then you might be in trouble in the form of a flank charge. It is what also makes insane courage a worthwhile rule.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:39 pm

Nathan,

You are reading content into the rule that doesn't exist, and bringing some personal biases/baggage with you.

Frankly, I would be shocked if my opponent had a problem with me reforming as you have described...

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:47 pm

Maybe so, however I think that you need to use personal opinion (or bias/baggage) in gray area situations such as this. If you want a hard answer from the rulebook I think that the "No More Foes" rule on page 61 pretty handily solves the problem. If you get rid of the "In multiple combats" part from the start then you basically have this exact situation.

I don't think you can make a "combat" reform since you are no longer in "combat".

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:50 pm

1.) I don't think that it is grey at all.

2.) The timing of the reform takes place during combat.

We know from the overrun answer, that crumbling takes place after you have the opportunity to pursue/overrun, so the enemy models haven't been removed yet when you have the chance to reform.

That imposes a number of restrictions, but it still takes place.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:03 pm

So to get this straight, the order of resolving combats is as follows:

1. - Combat
1.5 - If one unit is destroyed in combat this is where reforms or overruns happen
2. Loser takes a break test/crumble gets calculated but does not yet happen?
3. If the break test is passed, then winning/losing reforms happen.
4. Flee and pursue/restrain and reform
5. Remove crumbled models?

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  decker_cky on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:07 pm

1: Round of actual combat
2:Calculate combat result (this is where crumbling happens)
3: Loser takes a break test (this is where combat reform happens if opponent didn't break)
4: Flee and pursue (this is where reform from restraining would occur)

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:11 pm

In that case I would say that you would be allowed to reform due to restraining pursuit.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:26 pm

@decker_cky,

I think you're off base on that.

Daemons take a break test (Instability is a special type of break test). Their models can't be removed until step 4. Skaven Slaves take break test, and are removed in step 4 instead of fleeing. Squig Herds take a break test, and are removed in step 4 instead of fleeing. War Machines take a break test, and are removed in step 4 instead of fleeing.

I would add Unstable units to that list, and remove them in step 4, out of convenience. Note that the FAQ answer applies equally to all of the above.

The way I interpret the FAQ answer is that you must have removed the enemy unit prior to step 4 (or indeed prior to step 3) in order to get an overrun, and the special rules of the above units prevents that. If the models were removed at step 2, then you would get to overrun, as overrun takes place in step 4. Logically, since we are given the example that we can NOT overrun, the removal of Unstable models can't take place any time prior to step 4. For Daemonic/Squig/Slave/War Machines, they can't be removed prior to step 4 in any event, because they all have to take break tests - which occur in step 3. I freely admit that I am using my inductive reasoning here, but any other result would seem to necessarily lead to an inconsistency among the special rules referenced in the FAQ answer if you removed Unstable models at any other time.

I would put the timeline thusly:
1: Round of actual combat
2: Calculate combat result
3: Loser takes a break test (MAKE COMBAT REFORM)
4: Flee and pursue (finally remove models for Unstable/Daemonic Instability/Cornered Rats/Squig Herds/War Machines, etc.)

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  decker_cky on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:41 pm

Well, I was dealing with undead. You're right on the other ones, but undead definitely has the unstable apply in step 2. I think you just have to say "wipeout isn't available for these units" rather than assume they all occur at the same time.

"Unstable units that lose a combat suffer one extra Wound for every point by which they lose combat[...]."

I think it's a stretch to drag where they're removed to two steps later than the point where it's determined that they lost and what the difference in combat results is.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:50 pm

But that's not logically consistent with the rules for overrun as they are written and the FAQ answer.

We know when 4/5 of the unit types referenced in the FAQ answer are removed: step 4.

That's consistent with preventing overrun (the FAQ answer), because the models haven't been removed yet, so the unit has not been freed up to overrun.

With your step 2 timing for Unstable casualty removal, against Swarms and Undead units you should get an overrun from them. The FAQ says we don't though... You also should get to reform after a wipeout. If your interpretation was correct, then GW got the answer for WM/Daemons/Slaves, etc. right, but got the answer WRONG for Unstable models.

My interpretation is logically consistent across all of the referenced unit types, and doesn't conflict with anything, as it doesn't say AT ALL when to remove casualties inflicted by Unstable.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:53 pm

This is where the gray area begins.

If we go with rules as written then we are actually talking about 2 situations. Models with the "Unstable" rule and models that crumble after failing a break test need to be dealt with separately as the wounds are possibly lost at different times. I don't really think that this is much of an issue, I like Eric's opinion that they happen at the same time. I think the real issue is figuring out the correct sequence of events after combat.

I think it is like this:

1. Combat - if one unit is wiped out in combat then there is the option to overrun.
2. Calculate combat result
3. Loser takes a break test.
4. If the break test is passed then reforms can happen, if not then pursuit/crumble/hold and reform

I would propose that the instant that the break test is failed that the crumble happens as well as all effects (ie: skaven slaves, squigs etc). Since this is instantaneous the winning unit is no longer in combat and as such you have no combat reform option available and must use the "No more foes" rule. If the unit is unbreakable with the unstable rule then this sequence is reduced to:

1. Combat - if one unit is wiped out in combat then there is the option to overrun.
2. Calculate combat result
3. Crumble

If the unit sufficiently crumbles so that there are no models remaining then again, you have no combat to "combat reform" in.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  Kuyp on Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:47 pm

Post removed cause i was wrong!!


Last edited by Kuyp on Thu May 02, 2013 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  nathanr on Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:53 am

I think you've got it right there Dom. It is basically what I've been arguing as well. There is no combat to allow a combat reform. Essentially you are using the "no more foes" rule. At the end of combat your unit suddenly finds itself not in combat anymore (as their foe has crumbled and is no more). They are free to move as normal but since the movement phase has passed they are stuck where they are until the next turn.

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Re: New FAQs posted

Post  Kuyp on Thu May 02, 2013 12:22 am

hmmm my apoligies ....

i just noticed a update to the Faq, units are allowed to overrun /reform if a demonic, unstable, cornered rat, or war machine failling its break test are wiped out due to these rules.

... clears things up a bunch

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Re: New FAQs posted

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