Octocon tourny lists!

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Octocon tourny lists!

Post  squalie on Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:17 am

I thought it might be cool if everyone posted their potential lists for the Octocon. We can give friendly advice and make suggestions, and you can defend your choices! We'll see if the pass the "eye of scrutiny" test.

I had a Beasts list, but when I found out that special characters were allowed, I started fiddling around with a Gorthor list. If I was to use Morghur, how many Spawn models would be I need to have? Does anyone have experience with a Morghur list?

This was my first list, slightly crippled because of the Chaos neutering. So, not too many options for magic items.

Great Bray-shaman, Mark of Slaanesh, lvl 4 (walks free, never done this before)
Chaos armour
rune of the true beast
power stone

3 x lvl 2 Bray-shaman, undivided (Beast, or Death lore)
dispel scroll x 3

2 herds, 7/9 Gor/ungor, full command

4 x Chariots, Mark of Slaanesh (never really flee with them anyways, and have appreciated the fact that they can charge terror/fear causers without concern)

2 x 5 Warhounds

2 x 3 Mino's, GW

2 x 5 Centigors, mus, lt armour

4 x Spawn, Mark of Slaanesh

The Spawn aren't the biggest killers in the world, but I have noticed in games lately that they can really threaten one end of the table. All 4 on one side, charging 360, moving 3d6, march blocking, can make a fellow second guess. Beasts just don't have a lot to deal with Large FLYING terror-causers, so that's where the strong magic comes in. Dragon Ogres run away more than you think and Giants can be easy targets. Beasts lore is pretty handy at slowing down monsters.

C'mon guys, don't be shy -- put it out there!

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:50 pm

Hey there Don, good idea to start this thread. I'll post my tentative list soon for all to look at. Having said that I looked over your list and I had a few thoughts. Remember that when you say "with all due respect" it's a free pass to say whatever you want and not have it held against you. Like in Talledega nights.

With all due respect....

That list is bullshit. I think you've traded in your soul in hopes of getting a few lucky magic phases in and roasting your opponents by beating them in the "magic dice a-go-go". You've got the makings of a fairly nicely themed raiding force with a ton of fast moving small units (Though 4 spawn is overkill) but then you've gone and phucked it all up by playing 4 mages. Beating people in the magic phase to death never, ever, eeeeeever wins you friends. Rolling in with 12 power dice and a stone will only ensure that if your plan goes down as designed you will leave a frustrated opponent who will label you as a cheese dick power gamer who roasted him with magic an not an ounce of tabletop tactics.

And after that I don't think your list will be effective enough because you're super vulnerable to some shooting or some nasty counter charges to bust up your small units. Like you said crap LD will hamper your army badly. The one thing all the super heavy duty armies have in common (From Eric's post) is they've got lots of fear/terror causers. Your chariots and spawn may not give a flying one but the odds of you being able to conduct a concerted attack intact under your opponents watchful eye with those units may be slim. So I think your back to rellying on your magic phase again, which may win you a game or so but you'll definetely hear about it in the comp and sportsmanship scores. No matter how great a guy you are you'll find that opponents from other parts can't seem to differentiate army comp and sportsmanship scores.

All those armies in the "power creep" thread are winning because they utilize a similar strategy to what you're doing here with this list (I think) and I don't know if you'd want to lump yourself in with that crowd.

My advice would be to stick with what you know and love about the game. I don't think this lists suits you, after playing you a while back. It's a list that is so very much a one trick pony that it makes me want to puke. I would go back to Don Matwe 101 and play the fightingest, balanced list that you can make, and worry about trying to win with it when you hit the table. Your opponent will have more fun, and I think YOU will have more fun.

And yes, my own personal list WILL include a Great Unclean One tooled up to the max. In fact as I get closer to seeing the deadline and having lost all painting ambition for this army I will likely make him a Lvl 4 caster, so take my post as you like it. Just know that if I had to play against this list I would give you a zero for army comp if I could. Maybe even a 0-.

Love,


Scott

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  squalie on Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:30 pm

Scott, you need to stop bottling things inside, and just tell us how you really feel. Very Happy

Seriously though, this is what I wanted this thread to do, and I sincerely appreciate the honesty. I really didn't think this list was all that bad, but it certainly didn't pass the "Radom-eye-of-scrutiny". I just felt that I was trying to play off of Beasts weakness. Psychology and dealing with big munsters. What is it that offends the most? The Chariots, or is it the spellcasting?

I guess I could ask what kind of armies I'll be dealing with? Rumour has it a few Daemon armies might be floating around. Wink

Scott, I remember when we played, I felt that magic was an answer I needed. This was confirmed when I played Rob's DE big monster list the other night. Back to the drawing board...

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:56 pm

I don't mind the chariots at all. I think 4 is a little extreme but I could live with that, and I don't think I would penalize you for taking them. Especially since I would be raping your score because of the wizards anyway!

What I dislike is exactly what you are trying to accomplish. I'll try to get at the heart of things. When I envision a beast army this is not it. If I were to be suprised by this list I would think "Here's a guy who should be playing a different army all together". You've got a beasts of chaos list designed to get around the fact that they have low LD levels. You're trying to make an army lists that has no missile weapon capabilities at all and trying to make magic do that for you.

Essentially it looks to me like you're trying to play a Wood Elf army with Beast models. If you ask around about the worst armies people have played against in tournaments it's usually translates to people trying to turn their army into something it's not. Famous examples come to mind of Skaven armies with 8 man units of ogres "Because Skaven aren't very good in combat the dude said" or extreme examples of an army like a dwarf list made out of all missile troops and war machines (Okay that one was mine, and it rocked everybody down!).

I've played a few armies and I find the best way to counter inherent weaknesses in an army is to play right into them. If you don't like beast LD try playing goblins. Rather then spend points on characters to help mitigate the poor LD why not just buy another unit? I like armies that play into their strength (theme wise) myself, and find them to perfrom pretty well on the table as well. I'd rather see you play into the strength of the beast list (lot's of units, good maneuvarability). Having said that I abandoned my beast army long ago as I couldn't really come to terms with how to play them.

On the other hand, why not try that list out? I'd like to see if my personal view of how tourny armies should be built is completely out of date given the changes in army power for 7th edition. Maybe your list will be so tame in comparison to the other lists nobody (but me!) will care and give your list fabulous marks.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  nathanr on Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:57 pm

Remember, there are 4 phases in the game! Beastmen are traditionally good at movement and close combat so keep those in place. An overly-strong magic phase takes away from your effectiveness in the other phases so try to average it out. I'd drop one of the level 2 guys and take another herd (or 2) instead. If you feel you need the magical defense, give both your shamans 2 scrolls. (6 DD and 4 scrolls should see you through most games). You still have plenty of magical offense (10 power dice and a power stone) but it isn't excessive (I've faced a 1200 point High Elf army with that many power dice). I don't mind the 4 chariots or even the 4 spawn. It is really just the heap of magic that is not fun to play against.

You could also just downgrade your level 2 guys to level 1 since they probably won't cast more than 1 spell a turn anyway.

If you really want to go magic-heavy, I'd still get rid of one of the wizards and give the remaining wizards a power stone and a dispel scroll each. That way you will catch them off guard with an explosion of magic on turn one and then the next turn they will save dispel dice in anticipation of a repeat. 2 good magic phases at the start without completely cheesing out.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:41 pm

I'm man enough to post my list (hopefully there's a spot still available)!
Tomb King - Crown of Kings, Scorpion Armour, Cloak of the Dunes, Great Weapon, Shield

Tomb Prince - Flail of Skulls, Chariot

Liche Priest - Staff of Ravening, Casket of Souls

Liche Priest - Hieratic Jar, Dispel Scroll

5 Chariots - Standard, Icon of the Sacred Eye

25 Skeletons - Light Armour, Shields, Full Command, Banner of the Undying Legion

25 Skeletons - Light Armour, Shields, Full Command

15 Skeletons - Bows

15 Skeletons - Bows

1 Tomb Scorpion

1 Screaming Skull Catapult - Skulls of the Foe

Only 4 Dispel dice and 1 scroll, but who needs magic defence anyways? (hopefully not me...)

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  ScottRadom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:48 pm

I like this list. Your magic defense is the TK with the cloak of dunes and the chariots. Go smash wizards and be done with it. Also the Scorpion is great at picking out wizards since it can't be challenged.

A few thoughts...

You can't stand and shoot with the archers anyway, why not bust them up into 3x10 man units? Gives you more deployment flexibility, more units to force your opponent into deploying his tricks first etc.

Also I really, really hate the casket of souls. Does it do anything for you? I would personally swap it out for almost anything, maybe a few carrion or even a second catapult (though that will cost you friends!). I loved my bone giant when I used it too.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:53 pm

Yes, that is my anti-magic plan. King and Scorpion.

The 2 units of 15 bow skellies are so when I cast smiting on them (during turns my wizards have nothing better to do), I get 5 more shots per cast. It also makes them big enough to tarpit smaller skirmishing and fast cav units that would otherwise smush units of 10.

I really like the Casket. Once my King marchblocks a lot of the enemy army, I should get 2 or 3 casket attempts. I don't care if the spell ever goes off, but most players will save a couple dice or a scroll for it, dispel ability that would otherwise be more useful.

Also, and often underrated, the Casket gives all enemy Wizards -1 to cast. This can be a huge advantage, and should make most VC players think twice about throwing single dice to summon guys, Nurgle players think twice about single dice attempts for Miasma. It's actually a big part of my magic defence too.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  Carson on Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:02 pm

Ok I really missed some posts here. First off, Dons list is not good. I think the only thing your magic will accomplish is to piss your opponent off....remember this is a tournament setting and not a one off game. The chariots and spawn don't bother me that much..well four spawn maybe...play to the high speed and combat potential of your army. Its true that one way to counter low leadership is too just have a shit load of units. Do you have any pestigors. Mark of Slannesh would counter all of the fear causers I expect to see.

Eric, your list looks quite good but you've really got to know when the right time to engage will be. If you piecemeal it you'll be in trouble.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  Carson on Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:10 pm

And here comes my list.

Vampire Lord:helm of commandment, master of the black arts, dreadknight, lord of the dead
11 black knights, warbanner, full command

25 skeletons, full command

25 skeletons, full command

23 graveguard, full command, banner of the barrows
1 wightking, steed, sword of kings, gem of blood

15 crypt ghouls

15 crypt ghouls

1 vargulf

7 pd, 4dd

So, I'm really heavy in the specials department. Not a really friendly list in my opinion, but thought I should go a bit more hard since its calgary. Never played with a really large units of blackknights with vampire. probably not the best idea but I'm not going to go all ape shit with them and just throw them out.....got to wait for the right moment.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:27 pm

At first inspection that list doesn't seem that hard to me Carson.

I think your Vampire is having an identity crisis too. On the one hand, he's mounted and in a huge unit of Heavy Cav, obviously spoiling for a fight.

On the other hand, he has no combat equipment, and his most useful item (the helm) is effectively neutralized while he is in combat.

He seems to be built like a magic casting support lord, one who would normally hide in a bunker, summon hordes of minions and throw his WS7 around.

Also with only 2 characters, only one of which can cast, you are very light on the magic for a standard Vampire list. Now I realize that lets you start with more on the table so you don't have to spend much magic effort summoning, but I am not sure if 5 units of infantry, a Varghulf and a huge cav unit will be able to deal with scouting skirmishers, flyers and fast cav effectively enough to actually let the infantry engage.

Finally, a VC tournament list without the Drakenhof Banner? You'll win the sportsmanship prize right there.

I don't know if you have some devious plan cooked up that I am missing, but I wouldn't consider that a tough list. I would certainly be more than happy to see it across the table in a league game.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  Carson on Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:53 pm

My master plan is to let the infantry engage first and then countercharge with the black knights, hence the helm of commandment. I wanted to go character light and its tough to have a proper magic phase ( for Vc) and kit out my lord for combat at the same time. I've found that with the bsb wightking and graveguard combo that they can hold aginst pretty much anything....escpecially if I add in ws7.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  Carson on Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:55 pm

should I add in another caster and drop the vargulf?

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:25 pm

It might not be a bad idea for the magical punch, but then you would be losing a potentially valuable "deal with shit" unit. The Varghulf might be really useful for that critical redirect or to deal with some nasty fast cav or something like that.

Another option might be to drop one of the Ghoul units, and a few Skeletons from each of the units, and then as long as you have Lord of the Dead, between the new Caster and your Lord, you can bring them right back in the first few turns.

A further option would be to drop either the Varghulf or the infantry, and take a mounted combat hero (either a combat equipped Vampire or another Wight King) to go with the Knights, while the Lord goes on foot into a skeleton bunker. This option won't increase your magic further, but it will keep your Lord out of combat so he can do the most good.


EDIT:
Actually, the more I think about it the more I would probably go with the following:
Vampire Lord
Helm of Commandment
Master of the Black Arts
Lord of the Dead
Dark Acolyte

Vampire
Dread Knight
Book of Arkhan

Together, these two cost 540, so that's 165 points to find.

It gets you another caster, 2 more power dice, 1 more dispel dice and a hidden bound spell that could potentially turn the tide. Plus it keeps your casty Lord out of combat (but if you really want him in combat, then feel free to ignore everything I've said).

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  squalie on Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:14 pm

Ok, here's that defensive part I was telling you about....

I honestly believe it's difficult to build a truly competative list using Beasts, and in the current meta-game I also find it hard to believe that ANY Beast list could be considered cheesy. Maybe 4 wizzie's is a bit much, but for goodness sakes I'm having to deal with Greater Daemons, Hydra's, Dragons and Vamp lords, etc, etc. I also would have thought that 4 Spawn would be far less cheesy than 2 Giants or Giant - Shaggoth.

All I have to do is drop a shaman and we can all go back to hugging? Done and done.
Scott, I brought a Khorne army and literally bounced off your daemons (I actually hate playing Khorne). Against my buddies DE army, I simply couldn't deal with the 4 large terror causers that flew/skirmished around the table. I actually agree with you guys though as Magic is a cruel mistress and the more dice you throw the more she can betray you. I'm now trying to decide to go with a Doombull list or just go back to my roots and "play the herd".

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  RickyDMMontoya on Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:26 pm

I wouldn't have any problem with the initial list posted, and my army is largely magic defence deficient.

It's a tournament. BRING IT!

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  Carson on Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:49 pm

Hey Don
We'll its true that there are going to be alot of tough armies in Calgary, but I don't think your approach in the first list was the right one. I've been to alot of tournaments and the one thing that all players hate is to be beaten by magic. Not only will your sportsmanship and composition scores suffer but I think you'll regret it in game terms. While magic alone will win you the odd game I've never seen it consistently win games. I think your list lacked combat potential and is very fragile....if your magic goes south you don't have anything to salvage...which is often the case with that type of army. I just think you would be more successful with a different approach. Have you thought of taking just two casters....both can be loaded up with scrolls, stones and the staff?
Just my thoughts.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  squalie on Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:28 am

Carson,

I certainly get what you guys are saying. Scott's also right in saying that it doesn't seem like a list that I would normally play. I have reminded myself that I'm going there for fun, so I'm making a list that I would like to play instead of trying to make a WAAC list.

I honestly do appreciate the comments, as I have very little tourny experience, but payback's a bitch and we have yet to see Scott's list. *insert 2001 space odyssey theme music here*

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  ScottRadom on Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:05 pm

My list is killing me....

I really am have less fun then I would have hoped playing the Nurgle themed list. Partly because I played the shit out of it back in the Storm of Chaos days. I could probably open up the variety and tone of the list by including other demons, but all the other gods eat my balls. I really, really, want to play with my Great Unclean One, because I feel obliged to play with a model I put that much time and cashbucks into. Having lost a little love for playing the list I have also run out of steam for painting. I am enjoying working on my Dwarfs but what I really want to get back to is orcs. So I am having all sorts fo focus problems now a days.

My list will not be a great list. It won't make you stand up and cheer or nothing and my advice and comments were definetely a case of "do what I say, not what I do". To try and pad points my characters and units are most likely going to get full points upgrades.

I am trying my hardest not to just take my orcs. I want to give my demons some tourny time!

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  squalie on Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:34 pm

You get huge props for playing a single Daemon list. It's a major pet-peeve of mine when people min-max an army list and include every Daemon type. That's simply not how it should be done.

Keep in mind that I blame NO army for them having the ability to make the list that it can. If it's in your army book -- have at 'er. It's up to me to find a way to beat a particular army, NOT to ask the player to "tone down" his list so I have a chance. Who am I to say that a Dwarf army has too many cannons, or a Wood Elf army having too many archers, or a Bretonnian army for having too many Knights. That's what they do! If you don't like a 2nd Gen Slaan, Greater Daemon, 2 treeman, etc, don't blame the guy playing it. Either find a way to beat with the army you enjoy, or pick a different army.

Nurgle Daemon was the first army I ever had, so I have a soft spot for your army. I also know what you mean about painting, that Nurgle army caused me not to paint for a loooong time afterwards.

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Upcoming Tourney

Post  cmemate on Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:36 pm

Well this is my first post on the forums & I'm sure I will offend Very Happy

Squalie I think your list is well, weak, because the games are often cut a bit short in tourneys. The first two turns armiesopponents will survive your magic phase with scroll caddies, and after that you'll be in hand to hand with not a very scary army. I Feel (I did say I feel, which means it can't be wrong I'm just telling you how I feel:) ) that Beast are great at putting alot of different problems on the table, giants, Frenzied Minos, Dragon Ogres, Chaos Spawn, chariots, & some pretty tough characters. I feel for bests to bring it you have to throw alot of problem troops at your opponent fast and hard, but I do play WE so thats what I hate seeing accross the table others I'm sure others see it differently.

That being said for anyone to not like the feel of your army or its direction really doesn't matter, if it's in your rule book that you can have 4 casters for the particular set amount of points than I think you should bring it with a smile. Cheez?? That's a joke, yes you are taking advantage of a particular phase but isn't every army? Also by putting your pts in the magic phase you are weakening other parts of your army so it all works out in the end.

Cheez is a slang word for I just got my rear kicked in by your .......Great Unclean One. (this occurs becuase
GW comes out with troops and characters that simply play like they were never tested or they really wanted to increase sales of a particular product. Is it the players fault NO its in the book, often a cool piece, and hey who plays to loose?
We all have our beat sticks & hurdles to overcome, some armies more than others thats the fun of it. Even when your army is way behind on the books isn't it great when a plan comes together, it makes a W that much sweeter even better.
Another great point is with cheezy characters & lists we all have an excuse when we loose cheers it works out great!

Let the games begin!

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  ScottRadom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:02 pm

I plan on starting another thread for this if we get much more discussion, just so we can try and keep a little of the focus on posting our octocon lists. But in the meantime....

I am gravely dissapointed in you guys (In the voice of the Humongous). What i am hearing about this army list talk is "If I CAN do something legally, it's OKAY to do it.". Well, that just smacks of crappy ends/means style logic. It's just a game true, but when we do anything it's an extension of who we are and what we are about. Do you, as a player (Directed at nobody, and everybody!) enjoy beating your opponent because even in your own opinion the boys at GW dropped the ball and made available to you something that is too good/powerful/ridiculously cheap etc. If you are okay with your opponent making a list that you feel takes advantage of lousy playtesting, poor rules, or poor points calculations, just because he can then I can't relate to you.

Granted every person has to judge something like this on their own, and nobody can make rules to account for personal guidelines and expectations. But we can each decide for ourselves if it's okay to make an army that we would be frustrated to play against. I've won a bit at tournies, and I sure have lost my fair share. The games that stick out in my mind for all the bad reasons are the ones where my opponent took an army that can accurately be described as power gaming. Looking back I think I was able to win most of those so it's not just a reflection of me being a poor sport. The games I remember most fondly are the ones where my opponent and I had armies that we each felt were representative of the race we were playing, were competitive without being overpowered, and typically well balanced. The ones I really enjoyed the most I tended to lose as well.

This is a very grey area where it's all down to personal opinion on what Warhammer means to each individual player. If one looks at it as a pure wargame where tabletop victory is the only acceptable outcome and must be achieved by any avenue possible then it will be very tough for myself to play against you.

I absolutely refuse to cut either myself, or my opponent any slack for taking what I consider an unfair army list simply because it was an option to him.

But that's just me, and that opinion is really based just on tournies. AS for league play or regular pick up games I have no problem with anyone playing anything every now and again. It keeps things fresh, and at the very least I can look back and say "Wow, that was retarded, I hope to never have to playu against that again.".

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  Carson on Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:06 pm

simply put, well said.

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Re: Octocon tourny lists!

Post  squalie on Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:49 pm

Hmm, I think what I have written may have come out the wrong way. I'm just saying that aside from a little ribbing, I don't mind playing against ANY list. In the Jaw, as I've mentioned, I can't even remember us even playing with special characters or even the same army list more than twice, so we really have little/no experience with power gaming. I think some of our comments may be a little over-zealous, because of our lack of tourny experience, and of the horror stories and cah-razy tourny lists you read about. I made a decision after my initial post (and after getting my pee-pee slapped) that I'm just going to play a list that I'll enjoy. If my opponent also likes my list because he considers it soft, then so be it. If someone wants to play with a pimped out list, that's their choice. And the rules allow them to do this. But, I don't agree with it either and I feel it DOES affect the game whether the power gamer would ever admit it or not. I just continue to roll dice, hope for the best, and grin like I've drank a ton of Whiskey if I do happen to win. If anyone knows me they can attest that I usually could care less if I win or lose --winning's better, though.

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Holy smoke guys go easy

Post  cmemate on Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:25 pm

Fellas,

I am not saying win at all costs, I understand making a list that could make you unpopular, I just didn't really think Squallie's list was one of them, to go heavy magic for a change, may be fun to play and if you feel with the current meta game it could be positive I feel go for it. I was just saying with most positives in an army there are also negatives. If he goes heavy magic he will not be too great with current list in HTH. ,therefore I don't see the big deal with the list other than I just don't like it. I don't really think thats "cheezy." Cheezy= 2 Treeman and a Highborn on a dragon in 2200 pts. That's ubsurd. But running into armies that are a bit unconventional I don't mind.
My worst Warhammer experience is sitting down for a fun game and running into 17 power dice, not fun:(

Love cmemate
Very Happy

cmemate

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